Old 11-02-2017, 08:51 AM   #41
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Of course, time to implement it is not free...
Correct, I didn't mean money. I do sympathize but the "hosts" shouldn't be chasing the "plugins".
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Old 11-02-2017, 08:55 AM   #42
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I mean, there are a few extensions to VST standards no other DAW than the one implementing it is chasing. Reaper has its own VST extensions... Sonar has that extension for VST migration (https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentati...atures.06.html)

Nobody's chasing those. Again, it's totally true what the wise xkcd says:

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Old 11-02-2017, 08:56 AM   #43
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I still see it as "host" vs "plugin" - there is a reason they are named that way. I really have no dog in the fight honestly, I don't use such tools so it's no sweat off my back either way.
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Old 11-02-2017, 08:58 AM   #44
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Correct, I didn't mean money. I do sympathize but the "hosts" shouldn't be chasing the "plugins".
Depends! Probably there are no rules for this. It's an option for the DAWs Devs to adopt or not based on the benefit for the users / effort to implement and dependencies it might create for future. Are there any other comparable situations? it seems a unique situation. All arguments probably are valid.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:01 AM   #45
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Are there any other comparable situations? it seems a unique situation. All arguments probably are valid.
That's the rub, any developer must take into account "what if everyone starts doing this" regardless. It's a plugin, it should plug in - as I stated I understand the reasons that's a problem but you can't blame the hosts for that problem - you can however say "I surely wish we had it, pretty please" though. The proverbial you that is.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:10 AM   #46
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Justin states it's a couple hours of work to implement on the ARA side and that it's less efficient and too ugly to add it to reaper just to satisfy a single plugin which is as valid an argument.
People keep making that argument against it but it's not factually true.

It is true that there are not lots of plugins and hosts that support it, but it's not true that it only works with Melodyne. It's always good to discuss these things but they should be factual. More plugins vendors that can benefit from ARA are starting to adopt it, like Vocalign.

P.S. I'm not making an argument for it in Reaper.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:13 AM   #47
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People keep making that argument against it but it's not factually true.
You need to take that up with Justin (what you quoted from me) because I'm quoting him directly from askjf and I do trust his coding expertise more than ARAs (I just do). The only concession I will give is that it really comes down to an argument of who does the work (that's what API really means "here you do it"), not much more than that in reality other than what I've been saying, plugins should plug in and it's unfortunate that ARA couldn't pull that off within current standards.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:21 AM   #48
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Hey Karbo,

I'm certain when Justin said it some months or years ago, it was true, but things do change. Melodyne is not the only plugin using ARA anymore. I suppose the modification might be...

"Too much trouble to implement an extension to satisfy 2-3 plugins"

I guess it would depend on how valuable users view the extension, workflow wise. The Vocalign guys were ecstatic to see it show up there and AV post is also one of Reaper's things... so ... it's good to have all of the facts in the discussion, no matter what eventually happens.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:22 AM   #49
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Melodyne is not the only plugin using ARA anymore. I suppose the modification might be...

"Too much trouble to implement an extension to satisfy 2-3 plugins"
And he corrected himself.

https://askjf.com/index.php?q=3857s
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:28 AM   #50
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Isn't this something that could be "explored" by some heads around? xenakios, Kawa, cfillion
Just shooting(blind)! and ask for a price for this or something like crowdfunding for this task?
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:29 AM   #51
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Hey Karbo,

I'm certain when Justin said it some months or years ago, it was true, but things do change. Melodyne is not the only plugin using ARA anymore. I suppose the modification might be...

"Too much trouble to implement an extension to satisfy 2-3 plugins"

I guess it would depend on how valuable users view the extension, workflow wise. The Vocalign guys were ecstatic to see it show up there and AV post is also one of Reaper's things... so ... it's good to have all of the facts in the discussion, no matter what eventually happens.
Yea, like I said and like you, I have no real dog in this fight. I completely understand the argument "for" but my desire for standards over one-offs rises to the top in these discussions. It isn't the now that is the problem, its down the road where things like this could potentially become a mess (from a dev standpoint).
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:30 AM   #52
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Isn't this something that could be "explored" by some heads around? xenakios, Kawa, cfillion
No, none of them have access to Reaper source code, which is necessary for implementing it. It cannot be implemented as an extension, it needs to be in the core of the DAW.


Just forget about crowdfunding this, it won't happen.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:30 AM   #53
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Thanks Ed. We're going into meta-discussion land. My comment was only based on a quote in this thread saying "a single plugin"... that's all.

Justin (imo anyway) should always do whatever he wants (or not) and he doesn't have to justify it to anyone. Reaper is far from being the only host not supporting ARA so... it's not like he's alone out there in the weeds in that regard.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:33 AM   #54
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No, none of them have access to Reaper source code, which is necessary for implementing it. It cannot be implemented as an extension, it needs to be in the core of the DAW.


Just forget about crowdfunding this, it won't happen.
pitty! has juliansader seemed to request some days ago: probably some parts could be open source? and "this" could be one of them .. i don't know.
I have no arguments! i go work !

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Old 11-02-2017, 10:00 AM   #55
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Wouldn't work that way. To come up for an amount of money needed to develop a feature you must consult the developers.

So this means Cockos will have to start the Kickstarter campaign. Because only they are able to estimate the time (= money) required. Which in turn means you have to convince Cockos that the whole "raise money to outsource a feature" is worth all the hassle.

Masi
This isn't the first rodeo of this sort in REAPER land. Why in the world would this case be so different and in this instance need cockos to do it? The API is out there. How many times has this exact situation come up and the company fixed it (and its not like Justin didn't help when asked)? Melodyne could handle this if they think its worth their time.

In two cases off the top of my head it took me showing an issue to the company involved, then asking Justin if he had any insight, sending his advice to the other companies and them implementing it. Worked out fine.
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Old 11-02-2017, 10:03 AM   #56
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No, none of them have access to Reaper source code, which is necessary for implementing it. It cannot be implemented as an extension, it needs to be in the core of the DAW.
I don't think it is strictly necessary...It might be implementable as an extension plugin but just to do some initial research and testing would be a pretty big ordeal. Like I mentioned above, VST hosting would need to be implemented first by a 3rd party...And due to licensing and technical reasons, I don't think something like JUCE would help here. And it might not work out in the end anyway. I personally don't have much stake in getting it to work, I only have the Melodyne Essential license and that isn't frankly a very interesting thing to get working in ARA mode.
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Old 11-02-2017, 10:21 AM   #57
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Justin mentioned ARA requires some changes in how undo is handled (among other core things), somewhere... that for sure you cannot do anything about as extension developer, right?
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Old 11-02-2017, 10:25 AM   #58
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Justin mentioned ARA requires some changes in how undo is handled (among other core things), somewhere... that for sure you cannot do anything about as extension developer, right?
Depends. Extension plugins can add undo points, also with custom data. edit : Also, the undo integration thing isn't mandated by the ARA API, it's just something hosts will most likely want to implement.
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Old 11-02-2017, 02:07 PM   #59
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so original post / request could have some legs if lead by cockos or sws or other trusted person/organization. Anyway! reaper and his ecosystem is beautiful
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Old 11-02-2017, 02:27 PM   #60
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Maybe every plugin company should just do APIs, what a mess, that's my point. I know their hands are tied to an extent for technical reasons though so it sounds like a no-win situation.
Even if I trust Justin is correct claiming that "the REAPER API (which is flexible and incredibly simple), and the end result would be a lot more efficient and flexible IMO. ",

AFAIK, there is no "standard" to access the raw audio data by a VST plugins that has more supporting programs and more actual users than ARA.

In fact this is how most "standards" are born. E.g. VST was implemented and then published by Steinberg and many sites found it useful and followed.

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Old 11-02-2017, 02:31 PM   #61
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AFAIK, there is no "standard" to access the raw audio data by a VST plugins that has more supporting programs and more actual users than ARA.

In fact this is how most "standards" are born. E.g. VST was implemented and then published by Steinberg and found it useful and followed.

-Michael
Exactly.... which means there is no method of doing so inside the VST framework - let's not over nitpick the term standard here, it simply means the standards/methods available put forth by the VST specification and that doesn't afford what ARA needs to do. Since that is the closest thing we have to a "standard" that allows developers to "plug in" to DAWs that is already widely accepted and supported, going outside of it for any reason is going to be somewhat problematic as evidenced by this very feature request.

IOW, if this could be done inside the VST spec, this thread wouldn't exist but that isn't necessarily Reaper's fault as they can't recode and support every time someone rolls their own, regardless of why or who else did.
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Old 11-02-2017, 05:24 PM   #62
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Most hosts don't even support most of the current latest VST spec, so any idea that Steinberg will add something like ARA to the VST spec anytime soon or plugin vendors would even use it anytime soon if they did is highly debatable.

The thing about ARA is that it works now, it's not a proposal, it is, today, making those jobs easier. Nobody has to support it but let's be honest, the other things being proposed here are simply not going to happen, especially not anytime soon.

I think all of the above is pointless to debate. There's only one question for any host or any potentially useful API, is it worth supporting or not. It's a simple question and some hosts have obviously decided not for logical reasons.

If anyone expects those kinds of plugin companies to make specific versions for Reaper, Sonar, PT, Cubase, Traction and all of the others, that's not going to happen. We all know that.

But yeah, we're still waiting for hosts and plugins to support VST note stuff and VST articulation stuff and the other stuff they built into the spec years ago almost nobody uses.

For clarity: I have no doubt that what Justin says is true, that if they specifically targeted the Reaper API it would more elegant and better in Reaper. The problem is, that choice does not currently exist as a real world option, unless they're discussing it behind the scenes with Celemony and the other companies.
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Old 11-02-2017, 06:06 PM   #63
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any idea that Steinberg will add something like ARA to the VST spec anytime soon or plugin vendors would even use it anytime soon if they did is highly debatable.
Well, the "funny" thing is that VST2 already had something comparable to ARA. It was however never really supported by major hosts or plugins, so they dropped that in VST3. Of course then later Celemony came up with ARA. (Which is available for both VST2 and VST3.)
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Old 11-02-2017, 06:28 PM   #64
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That is funny.

I fully get, from you C++ guys who I trust and admire, that some of these API's are subjectively ugly, maybe a hassle to implement, etc, etc, etc. I don't doubt any of that for second.

It's more (the analogy) that when prom night happens even though it would be great to go with the homecoming queen, we usually don't. We go with the best girl that says yes.

That's the only current choice, date ARA or don't date.

The con argument is easy and logical though. Only 2-3 plugins support it. Nobody can argue with that logic.
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Old 11-02-2017, 07:40 PM   #65
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If anyone expects those kinds of plugin companies to make specific versions for Reaper, Sonar, PT, Cubase, Traction and all of the others, that's not going to happen. We all know that.
You mean like how something called, "ARA" I think was developed so that Melodyne could work in Presonus products?
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:37 PM   #66
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let's not over nitpick the term standard here
IMHO that's rather easy: there are "true" standards the specs of which are maintained by an independent organization, and there are "industrial standards" that are maintained by a single company that offers products that implement it and which clams to "lead the pack", and others follow for obvious reasons.

AFAIK, Midi is a true standard while VST is not. Of course ARA is not a true standard and by far less old and accepted as VST.

In fact I suppose Steinberg would have been able to include ARA functionality in VST3 in a decent way (maybe even in a compatible way, but certainly using nothing but their own guidelines). I don't know why they did not.

If I were a Reaper developer, this would be the main argument not to implement ARA: There once will be a VST specification for that functionality, and we don't know anything about same, yet. It might be a lot closer to what Reaper already provides. But other than with an official standardization organization you can't watch or work with Steinberg on that.

So the conclusion is that steinberg is the site to be kickstarted

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Old 11-03-2017, 04:06 AM   #67
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ARA is 6 years old. Here are some of the DAWs that don't support it:

REAPER
Logic
Cubase
ProTools

I've never heard anyone remotely suggest that the functionality with Melodyne is anything other than a totally desirable idea. For whatever (myriad) reasons, I think its safe to conclude that the DAW implementation side didn't pan out the way we all hoped. And yes, that's a real disappointment.

But think about this for a moment; Melodyne is widely considered an absolutely first class plugin with some unique functionality. If anyone was ever going to be able to get the DAW makers to sing to a Plugin maker's tune, this was it. And it didn't really happen.

That's hardly surprising, the DAW makers don't even sing to each other's tunes. In my experience, and I have worked on *cough one or two* plugins, when you see VST3 / AU / AAX plugins, they will almost certainly have come from common code. That common code will 99% of the time use a framework like JUCE, or an in house verion of JUCE, or iPlug/wdl-ol, or an in-house version of it. More than 50% of the time just straight vanilla JUCE.

The way plugins function is limited by the standards they operate under, and those limitations are starting to be a real annoyance. Celemony/PreSonus tried to change that, for which they should be applauded. But it didn't gain critical mass because <insert reasons>. Steinberg do try to change that but they can only affect VST, which isn't a enough of a compelling proposition for plugin makers to limit themselves to, so it doesn't generally happen.

This is, indeed, all very disappointing. If the plugin <> DAW interoperation functionality situation is going to improve, to me eyes there's only one source that could unilaterally make it happen. And that's JUCE. Because then there would be plugins; thousands of them. ROLI talk a lot about making things better for everyone, so maybe they might one day summon the considerable (and it would need to be considerable) will to change this. If they did, a good acid test of their technical approach would be whether they could earn the approval of the technically best coded DAW in the world.
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Old 11-03-2017, 04:31 AM   #68
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This is, indeed, all very disappointing. If the plugin <> DAW interoperation functionality situation is going to improve, to me eyes there's only one source that could unilaterally make it happen. And that's JUCE. Because then there would be plugins; thousands of them.
I am not so sure about that...Even if Roli did add ARA (or something similar) into their plugin client and plugin hosting code, I can see a couple of problems :

1) Most plugins plain don't need anything like ARA. Not even access to simpler things in the host. (Evidence of this is that the majority of plugin developers have been relatively happy since the 1990's to work with the pretty simple plugin model that was VST1/VST2. With occasional grievances, sure, but still relatively happy.)
2) Most DAWs are not written with JUCE, so they wouldn't get the benefits of the hypothetical extended functionality.
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Old 11-03-2017, 04:43 AM   #69
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The DAW makers aren't going to do it.

A single plugin maker was unable to do it.

If ROLI did it (not starting with something as complex as ARA) then that would be the closest thing to the only thing that hasn't been tried : LOTS of plugin makers doing it.

To be clear, I do recognise that chances of this are vanishingly small...
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:34 AM   #70
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You mean like how something called, "ARA" I think was developed so that Melodyne could work in Presonus products?
Huh? Melodyne works in everything and always has. ARA makes it work better and it's not specific to any one host.

These kinds of discussions tend to go off the rails pretty quickly. The only agenda for Celemony was making their product easier to use to sell more licences, what all good developers do.
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:43 AM   #71
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ARA is 6 years old. Here are some of the DAWs that don't support it:

REAPER
Logic
Cubase
ProTools

I've never heard anyone remotely suggest that the functionality with Melodyne is anything other than a totally desirable idea. For whatever (myriad) reasons, I think its safe to conclude that the DAW implementation side didn't pan out the way we all hoped. And yes, that's a real disappointment.
As relates to other three hosts on that list...

Logic = AU. Afaik, ARA is not supported in AU.
PT = AAX. Afaik, ARA is not supported in AAX.
Cubase = Variaudio. Their position is most likely that they don't need it, they'll just keep developing VariAudio to get closer and closer to Melodyhne, but users there are asking for it.

^^^ Logical fact based objective discussion ^^^

We can not take sides, remain neutral in the discussion, and still observe the factual realities. The reality is that it's a VST extension and Logic and PT don't support VST. The real list would be all popular VST hosts that don't support it. Not sure who else is on that list. Tracktion does, and maybe (not sure) Bitwig doesn't, and maybe Live doesn't and maybe FL Studio doesn't. Not sure.

Make the decision for or against based on fact, not emotion or skewed statistics.
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:02 AM   #72
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ARA was from its first inception for VST, AU and RTAS.

So ...er... yeah.
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:06 AM   #73
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That's why I saId, "afaik" it's a VST extension as that's the only format I've ever seen it work in.

If there are ARA SDK's for AU and AAX, that would be contrary to that belief. Thanks.

I am not opposed to being factually corrected.
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:33 AM   #74
EvilDragon
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It's even on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Audio_Random_Access


OK so add Samplitude to the list, so there are 4 DAWs that support this currently (S1, Tracktion/Waveform, Sonar, Samp).
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:34 AM   #75
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That's why I saId, "afaik" it's a VST extension as that's the only format I've ever seen it work in.

If there are ARA SDK's for AU and AAX, that would be contrary to that belief. Thanks.

I am not opposed to being factually corrected.
There is some AU code in the SDK, no AAX or RTAS though. Which could be because of licensing reasons and/or the fact that ProTools has not implemented ARA anyway. IIRC Celemony did originally mention ARA was supposed to work with most existing plugin formats. (Most plugin formats have ways to add extensions.)
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:37 AM   #76
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That's good to know. They do seem to be asking for it in both places, Logic and PT.

Facts are good. Thanks for setting me straight on that.

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OK so add Samplitude to the list, so there are 4 DAWs that support this currently (S1, Tracktion/Waveform, Sonar, Samp).
Here's the list from their web page...

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On the DAW side, ARA is currently supported by Presonus Studio One, Cakewalk Sonar, Magix Samplitude Pro, Acoustica Mixcraft and Tracktion Waveform. Another plug-in that employs ARA is Vocalign from Synchro Arts.
The biggest problem with ARA adoption is simply that there's very few plugins that may actually need it. AutoTune would be my next guess for plugin adoption, as it may kinda fit the use case... if it uses it's own cache. No clue.
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Last edited by Lawrence; 11-03-2017 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:01 AM   #77
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No sign whatsoever of Antares being interested in a Melodyne clone at this stage, let alone ARA.

I have been using just about every other plugin out there that falls in this category, including the one-track version of Melodyne that comes with Studio One.

Cant say I am pining for !all the things I miss" by not having ARA support.

The supporters of ARA are very vocal on here, but nobody has really given a serious run-down of exactly what would be available in Reaper in terms of functionality if ARA were added.
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:11 AM   #78
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The supporters of ARA are very vocal on here, but nobody has really given a serious run-down of exactly what would be available in Reaper in terms of functionality if ARA were added.
Whatever Cockos decided to implement would be available. The basic reason for ARA to exist is to allow plugins to read audio from the host's timeline as fast as possible and also be aware of changes that the user has made on the timeline so that the plugins can redo their analysis steps etc as needed.

It has auxiliary features such as allowing the plugin to add undo entries into the host's undo history, providing analysis information for the host to display/edit and replacing the host's time stretch/pitch shift algorithms.
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:01 AM   #79
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There's a cost (in time) / benefit ratio that's likely quite unbalanced for the developers as relates to implementing it, and in the bigger picture, nobody can *really* complain about it not implemented given how much handy free stuff Reaper has added in regular updates, like scoring and all the other cool stuff in the pre-releases.

In context, it's pretty far from being something worth complaining about, imo anyway.
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:59 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
There's a cost (in time) / benefit ratio that's likely quite unbalanced for the developers as relates to implementing it, and in the bigger picture, nobody can *really* complain about it not implemented given how much handy free stuff Reaper has added in regular updates, like scoring and all the other cool stuff in the pre-releases.

In context, it's pretty far from being something worth complaining about, imo anyway.
I see far more requests for ARA than I see complaints about lack of implementation. I think everybody is pretty understanding of the situation once they learn more about the intricacies of the situation.
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