Old 11-03-2017, 10:36 AM   #81
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You know what'd be even better than item-integrated Melodyne Pitch Editing? Area Selection, so that copy/paste doesn't cause panic attacks and arteries to rupture each time it's attempted.
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:48 AM   #82
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Way to offtopic, bro.
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:56 AM   #83
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Way to offtopic, bro.
Kinda, but the lunacy of itemizing pitch-correction when copy/paste of said items feels like a game of Windows 3.1 Minesweeper...
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:58 AM   #84
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Kinda, but the lunacy of itemizing pitch-correction when copy/paste of said items feels like a game of Windows 3.1 Minesweeper...
yes ferropop, but that sentence could be applied for almost every topic on requests .. imo
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Old 11-03-2017, 11:00 AM   #85
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Can someone explain what the copy paste issue is? I'm always up for cool new ways of working!
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Old 11-03-2017, 11:01 AM   #86
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Can someone explain what the copy paste issue is? I'm always up for cool new ways of working!
julian might explain you with some gifs :P

edit: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=193121

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Old 11-03-2017, 12:53 PM   #87
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Wouldn't "fix the broken itemless envelope copy/paste" be more accurate and simpler to get the point across. When I saw "area selection" I was like WTF, I select areas all the time
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Old 11-03-2017, 12:58 PM   #88
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Wouldn't "fix the broken itemless envelope copy/paste" be more accurate and simpler to get the point across. When I saw "area selection" I was like WTF, I select areas all the time
Not sure what the actual discussion is but "area selection" means selecting both horizontally and vertically IIRC. Let's say you wanted to select 1:00 to 1:20 (Horz) for the middle 10 tracks/items (Vert). Then copy that selected "area" and paste it somewhere else.

I'm positive Nuendo had this when I used it years ago - nice feature when it is needed - ah, looks like the .gif sort of explains it.
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:21 PM   #89
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but "area selection" means selecting both horizontally and vertically IIRC
Not just that - but it also means non-contiguous selections. Which is a biggie.
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:35 PM   #90
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Not just that - but it also means non-contiguous selections. Which is a biggie.
Non-contiguous - the gall!
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:46 PM   #91
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of course non continuous would be better, but a simpler version would be enough for working.
Because it is so fast to copy, if something non continuous needs to be done you just repeat the process for each non continuous part, and it won't take so much time and are exceptions. Imo
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:48 PM   #92
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Not to mention: non-contiguous area selection would pretty much break all native, SWS and script actions that rely on time selections (or they would only work on the first selection made, not on any subsequent ones).
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:55 PM   #93
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Wouldn't "fix the broken itemless envelope copy/paste" be more accurate and simpler to get the point across. When I saw "area selection" I was like WTF, I select areas all the time
Yes the name is a bit ambiguous, but the thing is that it is a feature that works for everything. In cubase it called "Range Selection".What you select and "highlighted" is what you get and do whatever we want : delete, move, copy
either items or envelopes, big or tinny selection works the same. It simplifies a LOT this process and very intuitive.
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:09 PM   #94
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Non-contiguous - the gall!
Ye old "Range Selection" chestnut / rabbit hole.

"Edit Filter" is probably the best way to define it because it's near universal, using a visual highlighted range as an edit filter, that whatever edit is being performed only happens in the highlighted range(s).

Not that Reaper actually *needs* it as a literal thing to edit efficiently, we all know better than that. More that, as much as anything else, it's a common and recognized standard of sorts across just about every kind of software application that edits objects on screen and only a few apps ever deviated from it.

It just happened to be the case that Reaper was initially modeled after one of those few who deviated from it, Vegas.
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:13 PM   #95
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Not that Reaper actually *needs* it as a literal thing to edit efficiently, we all know better than that.
of course this is your opinion which unfortunately i don't share.
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:15 PM   #96
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of course this is your opinion which i don't share.
Not my opinion tbh, more an objective observation. It's the opinion of many people who edit daily in Reaper without it. You can discuss that with them and I suppose and try to convince them that they actually aren't editing efficiently without it but I'll personally stay out of that conversation.
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:18 PM   #97
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Not my opinion tbh, more an objective observation. It's the opinion of many people who edit daily in Reaper without it. You can discuss that with them and I suppose and try to convince them that they actually aren't editing efficiently without it but I'll personally stay out of that conversation.
if i was editing media items all day i would not need too
anyway... i don't care ..
Since day 1 there are people which use reaper to edit , .. any feature done after that would not be necessary then

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Old 11-04-2017, 01:21 PM   #98
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so you speaking for a group?
Lol. Not really. See the phrase "objective observation" from my last reply.

All I'm saying is that there are quite obviously people running professional studios editing and getting it done. I assume that if editing was "not efficient", the clients would stop coming or start complaining about edits taking too long... which runs up the hourly clock, and makes the invoice bigger.

That's all I was saying. I was not challenging your personal view of all that.
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:25 PM   #99
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Lol. Not really. See the phrase "objective observation" from my last reply.

All I'm saying is that there are quite obviously people running professional studios editing and getting it done. I assume that if editing was "not efficient", the clients would stop coming or start complaining about edits taking too long... which runs up the hourly clock, and makes the invoice bigger.

That's all I was saying. I was not challenging your personal view of all that.
peace peace!
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Old 11-04-2017, 03:56 PM   #100
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peace peace!
No problem. Staying out of the Reaper lounge helps to see both sides of everything, and not always want to debate everything people here disagree about.

Good for the soul... well... for mine anyway.
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Old 11-04-2017, 07:51 PM   #101
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No problem. Staying out of the Reaper lounge helps to see both sides of everything, and not always want to debate everything people here disagree about.

Good for the soul... well... for mine anyway.
The issue is this - Reaper attracts both "traditional" mixers (people recording live instruments, editing them, comping, mixing) as well as modern "producers". My whole thing from the moment Automation Items was announced, was that this SUPER COOL feature would attract the producer crowd but instantly turn them away because without Area Selection this is a disaster.

Please take a look at this super simple (and Extremely common!) situation.

ABLETON:


Result: Exact duplication of selection


REAPER:


Result:
1. Track-2 volume automation chopped at edge of item. Bye-bye reverb/delay tail.
2. Track-3 volume automation broken up into pieces. Bye-bye reverb/delay tail.
3. Track-4 automation not even copied because there are no items.

...now throw Automation Items into this mess.

This is just the tiniest example of just how flawed the current duplication is in Reaper Again, Reaper destroys Ableton in a million other ways, but this is Such core functionality that is going to drive the new crop away immediately.

I just want Reaper to be the best it can be!!! This would get it 99% of the way there.
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Old 11-05-2017, 01:16 AM   #102
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Result:
1. Track-2 volume automation chopped at edge of item. Bye-bye reverb/delay tail.
2. Track-3 volume automation broken up into pieces. Bye-bye reverb/delay tail.
3. Track-4 automation not even copied because there are no items.
To me (never having worked with this kind of features up till now), this behavior seems obviously undesirable and not appropriately usable, without me even ever having touched Ableton,

So IMHO this should be discussed (as the new release of Reaper's is just heavily worked on) in the Pre-Realease forum and not here, as it's completely off-topic in this thread.

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Old 11-05-2017, 06:41 AM   #103
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I saw that image in the other thread. I didn't ask then but let me ask now... while certainly not dismissing your point...

How does cutting the volume automation in your image kill a reverb tail, unless the sound sustains long after the midi note in the one clip ends? Or are you more suggesting that if it does that with an automation item that's controlling an aux send envelope it would? If that's the point, yeah, that makes more sense.
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Old 11-05-2017, 07:47 AM   #104
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I saw that image in the other thread. I didn't ask then but let me ask now... while certainly not dismissing your point...

How does cutting the volume automation in your image kill a reverb tail, unless the sound sustains long after the midi note in the one clip ends? Or are you more suggesting that if it does that with an automation item that's controlling an aux send envelope it would? If that's the point, yeah, that makes more sense.
Hey Lawrence, I was trying to create an example that broke as many things as possible, this is just a small list.

Instead of getting specific, my point is this -- just give us a Copy tool that pastes EXACTLY what was copied, instead of creating all these weird problems. Let us select an area of stuff and paste that area of stuff, and it work properly. Literally copy and paste is the simplest possible concept in a DAW and it's broken right now.
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Old 11-05-2017, 07:50 AM   #105
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To me (never having worked with this kind of features up till now), this behavior seems obviously undesirable and not appropriately usable, without me even ever having touched Ableton,

So IMHO this should be discussed (as the new release of Reaper's is just heavily worked on) in the Pre-Realease forum and not here, as it's completely off-topic in this thread.

-Michael
Hey Michael, it sort of is on topic though. ARA is an item-based feature, so before implementing that we should probably fix item-based copy and paste (of all things!). Imagine the nightmare of now having ARA and not being able to properly duplicate the vocals you just tuned.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:40 AM   #106
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I check back here every few months, hoping that something, anything might have changed in the ARA-in-Reaper stakes. Might I finally be able to switch from Studio One to the DAW I actally want to use? Is there a glimmer of hope that could happen in the next several years, even? Ooh look, a new thread about a Kickstarter for ARA!

Then I see that nothing's changed and that Justin's posted another dismissive answer or two about the topic since the last dismissive answer I saw (in understand why he's being dismissive, but it doesn't make me any less sad). I go back to S1, disheartened, with my tail tucked between my legs. The cycle repeats.

It's kind of maddening being one feature implementation away from your perfect DAW editing workflow but knowing that feature implementation will just never come. I know for many this isn't even a concern but I know I speak for a whole lot of users for whom this would be the final puzzle piece.

I, uh, guess that concludes my resigned personal note on the situation.


While I'm here, that copy-and-paste-everything-in-a-selection-exactly feature should absolutely be implemented, seems like a no brainer.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:33 PM   #107
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Default The Melodyne ARA Pro Tools Track Hack

Maybe some scripting could achieve the equivalent of the Protools hack (for Melodyne 4.1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EuqaS2D_p8
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:08 PM   #108
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Default Any News on ARA?

Hi all I'm glad to be here. It seems like a really nice community!

I'm one of the Sonar refugees, and Reaper is the DAW I'd like to switch to. I like the depth, the customization possibilities, the varispeed, and the ability to set the first measure as "0", among other appealing features.

However, I use Melodyne Editor extensively and the lack of ARA integration would make it quite cumbersome for me to continue to do so. I'd have to either use some other DAW (Sonar for now, and probably Studio One if Sonar stops working) for those tracks and export/import them, or go back to the frustration of using Melodyne as a plug-in instead of as an integrated part of the DAW. It really does make a big difference.

I really like the looks of Reaper, and am hoping someone may have heard rumours of some progress regarding ARA integration.

Thanks very much and happy to be here,
LJ
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Old 11-29-2017, 12:52 AM   #109
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I am another one from Sonar.

Editing several tracks with MIDI in one editor is useful, right? Reaper has that.
Editing several tracks with Audio the same way is also useful. Melodyne Studio provides that and Reaper has no equivalent. I do not understand developers position: if that is "so easy", why not just do this? If that is not easy, why reply it is?

Probably looking at ARA API and Rea API it is possible to decide how hard gluing is. I can not do this now, but I am a bit surprised no-one has tried so far. Note that negative conclusion (f.e. ARA functionality does not fit into Rea API nicely) can be a good argument to request movements on the developers side.
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:04 AM   #110
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I am a bit surprised no-one has tried so far
Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, even very simple tests would require an insane amount of C++ code. It's just not worth it looking into it, unless maybe if the 3rd party developer has some personal reason to try it. It wouldn't be just about the ARA API and the Reaper API, additionally a pretty comprehensive VST plugin host would need to be written. (Because Reaper's VST plugin hosting is not reusable for 3rd party developers.)
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Old 11-29-2017, 05:44 AM   #111
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Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, even very simple tests would require an insane amount of C++ code. It's just not worth it looking into it, unless maybe if the 3rd party developer has some personal reason to try it. It wouldn't be just about the ARA API and the Reaper API, additionally a pretty comprehensive VST plugin host would need to be written. (Because Reaper's VST plugin hosting is not reusable for 3rd party developers.)
I do not see VST proxy host as a show stopper, it is not even bit bridging.

Have you actually seen ARA API? I am going to ask Celemony about conditions.

It can be that only DAW devs can get it, there are some special agreements and/or fees. In that case it is pretty clear that the only way to get ARA in Reaper is bumping core developers.

It can be that ARA for some reason can not be bridged throw Rea. Again, that will be a good technical argument to ask core developers.

Otherwise some DIY solution is theoretically possible. Who/when/how is another question.

PS. To avoid misunderstanding...
I am not a man from the joke "nothing is impossible for someone who does nothing". I mean technically I have sufficient skills to be that "3rd party developer". But I have many on-going and some planned projects, partially Control Surfaces, partially accessibility, partially both related. I was not expecting the crash of Cakewalk and I look at Reaper for several (quite busy at work) days only, so not yet "consumed" the manual, had just a brief look at API functions, not yet compiled any tests. So, let say I am a "N00b with background" here.
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Old 11-29-2017, 07:02 AM   #112
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There are no fees, ARA is free.
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Old 11-29-2017, 07:29 AM   #113
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I have many on-going and some planned projects, partially Control Surfaces, partially accessibility, partially both related.
Due to it's comprehensive APIs and programmability, Reaper supposedly is perfectly suited for this.

I use Reaper for Live playing and created a versatile "controller keyboard" by Reaper programming from a Kawai VPC 1 (great keys, no controllrs) and a Behringer XTouch Compact (Motor Faders). So maybe I can provide some expertize and/or code for your projects.

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Old 11-29-2017, 07:33 AM   #114
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Hi everybody. This comes up regularly. Here is the current state of ARA in REAPER.

1. We worked with Celemony when they first introduced ARA in 2011. They are helpful and nice.

2. At that time, we implemented the REAPER AudioAccessor API, which provides access to pre-FX audio at either the track or media item take level. This is essentially an implementation of ARA, but without the ARA interface. That API has been available in REAPER since 2011, and some REAPER users/scripters use it for various interesting ARA-like purposes.

3. Once we got to that point, where audio data could be accessed on demand by any external code, we then did some work to implement ARA on top of our API. But the complete ARA interface requires a significant amount of code overhead. Since we already had an audio data retrieval implementation, we chose not to spend the additional resource cost of developing and continuing to support the complete ARA interface. To be clear, "resource cost" simply means our time. This is not a money issue.

4. In 2016 we opened up the ARA API again and did some more work, but again reached the same conclusion.

What stopped us both times was the specificity of the work. It's easy to justify spending days or weeks on a new feature that is generally useful, and harder to justify spending the time to support essentially one plugin.

Over time several technical users have proposed building a third-party bridge between ARA and our AudioAccessor API, which is not technically impossible, but it would be an extremely complex undertaking.

In conclusion --

We understand that some users really, really want this. It's not really feasible as a third-party project. We understand the benefits and we also understand the development costs. We may at some point finish the project.
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Old 11-29-2017, 07:39 AM   #115
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Thanks for the info, schwa.

It's two plugins, though: Melodyne and VocAlign. I guess there should be more than "just" two plugins doing wicked stuff directly to timeline audio to justify implementing ARA in Reaper...


BTW when you say "code overhead", does that relate to CPU efficiency in the long run?
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Old 11-29-2017, 07:52 AM   #116
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What stopped us both times was the specificity of the work. It's easy to justify spending days or weeks on a new feature that is generally useful, and harder to justify spending the time to support essentially one plugin.
Hi schwa. Maybe You could forget the fact that it is a plugin, .. because it is a feature which happens to be in a plugin. But i am not really even interested in melodyne, just a thought.
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Old 11-29-2017, 08:08 AM   #117
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BTW when you say "code overhead", does that relate to CPU efficiency in the long run?
No, just the overhead of writing and maintaining code to handle a lot of different situations.
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Old 11-29-2017, 08:38 AM   #118
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I think the simplest solution is to just use the NEW Realodyne plugin.

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Old 11-29-2017, 08:56 AM   #119
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I do not see VST proxy host as a show stopper, it is not even bit bridging.

Have you actually seen ARA API? I am going to ask Celemony about conditions.

It can be that only DAW devs can get it, there are some special agreements and/or fees. In that case it is pretty clear that the only way to get ARA in Reaper is bumping core developers.

It can be that ARA for some reason can not be bridged throw Rea. Again, that will be a good technical argument to ask core developers.

Otherwise some DIY solution is theoretically possible. Who/when/how is another question.
The VST hosting part certainly isn't a complete showstopper itself. I've written a couple of VST2 plugin hosting implementations myself already. However, I suppose for using something like Melodyne, VST3 would be preferred which is a few notches more complicated and annoying to do. It would need to be a full hosting implementation, I don't think something like passing the VST API calls from Reaper to Melodyne via the "ARA bridge plugin" would work.

I have had the ARA SDK since 2012 or so. No fees were involved. No special conditions as far as I recall about how the API can be used. (Like for example how Avid/Digidesign back in the day prohibited doing RTAS plugins that host VST plugins...)

A DIY solution at some level is possible. However, to just get started would be a really involved project. Only after starting to implement it, one could see better how well it could actually work. It could end up as wasted time and effort because of some hard to predict issue later in the road.
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Old 11-29-2017, 09:13 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Due to it's comprehensive APIs and programmability, Reaper supposedly is perfectly suited for this.

I use Reaper for Live playing and created a versatile "controller keyboard" by Reaper programming from a Kawai VPC 1 (great keys, no controllrs) and a Behringer XTouch Compact (Motor Faders). So maybe I can provide some expertize and/or code for your projects.
-Michaerl
Thanks! I also like Kawai actions and I will need to port this: http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,346.0.html
into the Reaper world. I have made it for a friend (yes, the whole thing just for one person who was in trouble). He demonstrate the result in this videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU5PQJ8AWmQ
(when watching, please take into account that the person could not see the display nor the video).
Unfortunately Krefeld is not on my usual routes

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
Over time several technical users have proposed building a third-party bridge between ARA and our AudioAccessor API, which is not technically impossible, but it would be an extremely complex undertaking.

In conclusion --

We understand that some users really, really want this. It's not really feasible as a third-party project. We understand the benefits and we also understand the development costs. We may at some point finish the project.
I like challenges, but apart from learning the Reaper (as a DAW and as a API) and should think about porting AZ Controller into it (I already know that scripting is much more advanced then CW ACT API and strictly speaking my platform is not required, so I write "think" and not port immediately...), I want to advance this: http://www.azslow.com/index.php/board,11.0.html (Behringer mixers accessible control and SIBIAC).

So PLEASE, we really, really want it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb
.. because it is a feature which happens to be in a plugin
especially with Melodyne Studio. I will be really glad to announce on CW forum that there is a hope for the integration.
During Melodyne 2 to 4 transition, there was a huge discount for Editor to Studio upgrade. I think there are much more users then the current price tag imply.
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