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Old 11-28-2017, 03:11 PM   #1
TonE
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Default Reaper needs only mup text file export for best notation!

Then Reaper + mup will have no competition at all, not for scoring as well. Compose in Reaper, export to .mup, convert to pdf. Best of both worlds, great composition environment, great pdf presentation.

http://www.arkkra.com/doc/mupfeat.html

Extensive and well written user manual freely available; lex + yacc grammar included with the software.

A few example outputs:
http://www.major2nd.com/ae/music/

Here you can get empty staves:
http://www.major2nd.com/users/lpd/music/

Last edited by TonE; 11-28-2017 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 11-28-2017, 03:18 PM   #2
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I wonder how many people from the general music scoring population even use MUP. I bet it is a very very low single digit number.

Also, MusicXML is much more widely adopted.
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Old 11-28-2017, 03:31 PM   #3
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If you wonder, you can read this for a comparison between various formats:
http://www.major2nd.com/papers/mitig...m-20100607.pdf
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Old 11-28-2017, 11:01 PM   #4
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Interesting stuff, but I also think it was a bad idea to create yet another "Standard" with ".mup" instead of enhancing Music XML appropriately.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 11-29-2017 at 02:14 AM.
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:56 AM   #5
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Exactly.
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Old 11-29-2017, 02:24 AM   #6
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-> http://www.musicxml.com/musicxml-now...rted-220-apps/

-Michael
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Old 12-02-2017, 01:37 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Interesting stuff, but I also think it was a bad idea to create yet another "Standard" with ".mup" instead of enhancing Music XML appropriately.

-Michael
mup exists already, as best human editable format. Music XML is good, but not for human editing. Reaper has already MusicXML, which is great, so why not adding support for mup as well? Should be simple for the genius devs here. A .lua could be also nice.
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Old 12-02-2017, 03:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
... Reaper adding support ... LUA ...
The Reaper devs have lots of more pressing tasks to do. So only s 3rd party volunteer might be triggered.
Maybe an external program in any language could convert Music XML to (and from) .mup. This would benefit not only Reaper users.

-Michael
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Old 12-02-2017, 04:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Maybe an external program in any language could convert Music XML to (and from) .mup. This would benefit not only Reaper users.
Yep, that would be much better. MusicXML is de facto a standard now, and has a much wider adoption rate than this mup whatever thing.
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Old 12-02-2017, 06:53 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
If you wonder, you can read this for a comparison between various formats:
http://www.major2nd.com/papers/mitig...m-20100607.pdf
It's a bit old, but the sheet says that many application support MusicXML but only one mup. But I guess that hasn't changed in the meantime. So I see no reason whatever for *any* application developer to spend time on mup.

If you find that any feature present in mup is missing in MusicXML try to petiton the makers of MusicXML. *

Masi

* I guess that I can think of many possible extensions to MusicXML easily evem with referring to mup
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Old 12-02-2017, 07:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Maybe an external program in any language could convert Music XML to (and from) .mup. This would benefit not only Reaper users.
This makes sense, and honestly, I would prefer converting MusicXML to something more established (like Lilypond) which I believe already exists. I have no idea if mup is any good, but it certainly seems like a latecomer to a very niche market.
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Old 12-02-2017, 01:24 PM   #12
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Lilypond is a joke compared to mup.

FYI, L Peter Deutsch is inventor of ghostscript and on this hall of fame list of computer scientists:
PHP Code:
Jamie Zawinski
Brad Fitzpatrick
Douglas Crockford
Brendan Eich
Joshua Bloch
Joe Armstrong
Simon Peyton Jones
Peter Norvig
Guy Steele
Dan Ingalls
L Peter Deutsch
Ken Thompson
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Now, guess why L Peter Deutsch decided for mup? Because musicxml is genious? Masi look first into the coolness of mup format, ok?

Last edited by TonE; 12-03-2017 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:13 AM   #13
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Feature requests from Tone is a random pointless thing and shouldn`t be taken seriously.

Exporting MUP directly from MIDI Editor of course possible via ReaScript, but instead learning/do something himself or pay someone to code special need, Tone post every thing came to his mind. Good luck.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:16 AM   #14
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Buuuuuuuurrrrrrnnnnnn!
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:02 AM   #15
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Most important Tone`s posts devs must firstly take a look at and immediately implement in next prerelease:

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Old 12-03-2017, 08:02 AM   #16
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Now, guess why L Peter Deutsch decided for mup? Because musicxml is genious?
A short research tells me that he decided for mup, because he couldn't drive MusicXML into a direction he wanted to. He seems to have been an active part of the W3C standard group that develops MusicXML until 2014 or so.

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Old 12-03-2017, 10:10 AM   #17
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Compare both side by side for human editability, and elegance of content, then you know why.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:08 PM   #18
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Compare both side by side for human editability, and elegance of content, then you know why.
If I'd want to engrave by hand perhaps I'd choose mup, certainly I woudn't try to write MusicXML by hand. But that's not the purpose of MusicXML. The aim is to allow score exchange between differenet applications.

This is IMHO the only thing Reaper (or any other DAW) needs. If you want a proper engraving then get a decent one that supports MusicXML import. If MUP doesn't too bad for you. Perhaps someone has written a MusicXML to MUP converter.

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Old 12-03-2017, 02:20 PM   #19
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Which program has better notation pdf output than mup? I hope you will not mention Sibelius, Finale, Lilypond now.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:52 AM   #20
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Which program has better notation pdf output than mup? I hope you will not mention Sibelius, Finale, Lilypond now.
Neither me nor anyone else questioned MUPs rendering quality.

We all are arguing that Reaper needs ony to support the de-facto industry standard which also happens to be an open W3C standard to import and export notation data.

IMHO MUP, the program needs, a MusicXML importer. And other feel the same. See issue 947 on this list:

http://www.arkkra.com/doc/wishlist.html

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Old 12-04-2017, 04:28 AM   #21
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One way of looking is like you do. The other is: Would it not be great if there would be a lightweight command line tool which can directly generate perfect pdf notation output? Yes, such a tool exists, called mup. Funnily it is using a perfectly designed text input format. No nonsense, no cluttering, everything very elegantly thought out. Yes the other routes would be:
-midi to mup (two solutions exist already btw)
-musicxml to mup

Why I mentioned mup here:
-now every notation reaper user should know about mup
-mup can bring perfect notation output to reaper
-instead of wasting time optimizing all the pdf generation inside reaper, it could be wiser decision just to implement mup text export
-later devs could try to copy all features of mup directly inside reaper, if they want, but why reinventing the wheel twice if there is already such a great solution?
-I guessed many might know sibelius,finale,lilypond,musicscore,frescobaldi but not mup
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:29 AM   #22
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Why I mentioned mup here:
-now every notation reaper user should know about mup
-I guessed many might know sibelius,finale,lilypond,musicscore,frescobaldi but not mup
Mission accomplished.

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-instead of wasting time optimizing all the pdf generation inside reaper, it could be wiser decision just to implement mup text export
Oh, is there one? I don't care about it. If I want to print my score I'll use proper engraving software. I can live with exporting to MusicXML as all my engravers are GUI based and support MusicXML but not MUP.

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Old 12-04-2017, 06:38 AM   #23
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Which are you using? Sibelius, Finale?
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:10 AM   #24
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Which are you using?
Why does it matter? With "proper" I meant engraving software as opprsed to a DAW.

Actually I'm willing to believe without trying it out that MUP creates better looking scores than expensive rivals, but that doesn't mattter. IMHO it's MUP's task to get read support for MusicXML not Reaper's to get write support for the MUP format.

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Old 12-06-2017, 03:54 AM   #25
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Asked out out curiosity, you can keep it for yourself if you are afraid of anything and it is a secret.

Regarding export or import, yes both would work and benefit Reaper notation users. Now we have none of both, officially.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:29 AM   #26
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Asked out out curiosity, you can keep it for yourself if you are afraid of anything and it is a secret
Nope, no secret. I actually only feared that you would think I'm unworthy if I don't use programs calling themselve "industry standards".

As I'm amateur I started out cheap with MuseScore 1.x. It worked ok for me, but doesn't have great playback capabilities (IMHO 2. is a huge improvement). The next best (in terms of money) was for me Notion (now owned by PreSonus).

That said I guess that the option to move scores from MuseScore or Notion to MUP would be great. But as both of them are active in the MusicXML community and the MUP developer has parted from MusicXML in anger this will probably not happen any time soon.

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Old 12-06-2017, 08:21 AM   #27
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Thanks, but which mup developer parted from musicxml?
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:03 PM   #28
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Thanks, but which mup developer parted from musicxml?
I thought that L Peter Deutsch has some relations to MUP, because you said something along the lines that he chose MUP. Originally he endorsed MusicXML:
http://www.webcitation.org/6OerqSdg5.

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Old 12-06-2017, 01:17 PM   #29
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afaik he is only mup user, not developer.
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Old 12-10-2017, 03:16 AM   #30
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Yaaaawwwwnnnnn..... OK Tone - I ran out of popcorn as usual. You are currently flogging your own particular dead horse. Despite all your impassioned advocacy, you shoul dbe able to tell that the reacrtion round here to MUP is MEH.

We all know there are a bunch of different "best way to do" somethings out there, but so many fall by the wayside for one reason or another I am pretty sure the Devs are not going to drop everything else and rush to implement yet another new kid on the block.

Maybe later they will, but in the meantime there doesnt seem to be much point to continuing this eggbound thread.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:43 AM   #31
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If you are not interested in best notation you might not be interested in mup.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:48 AM   #32
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Best looking notation to me is actually in Dorico. So yeah, not interested in this thing at all.
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Old 12-10-2017, 12:04 PM   #33
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Dorico is really cool.
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Old 12-10-2017, 01:23 PM   #34
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Best looking notation to me is actually in Dorico
It better be good for that price The marketing blurb on Steinberg's site is impressive.

An guess what, it can read MusicXML files.

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Old 12-11-2017, 04:17 AM   #35
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Quote:
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If you are not interested in best notation you might not be interested in mup.
Opinions are like A$$holes.....everyone has one and everyone else`s stinks.



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