Old 01-21-2018, 12:44 AM   #1
hopi
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Default XML import and Quantize problem (FIXED)

OK guys.... this one has me really stumped

To make it really simple and clear, the files for this example both were created in Reaper... even though they started out life as exports from Sibelius...

I'd appreciate you testing this and reporting back here your results.

We are doing this on Win7 64 and Reaper 64... same results in official 5.70 and in a newer pre... [I did not say pre...hush!]

OK the files to get are here:

https://stash.reaper.fm/32735/XML%20...em%20files.zip

One is a .mid file and the other is the same notes but as an XML file

just load them both into an empty project, each on it's own track
then open them in the MIDI Editor and try Quantize...

for me, the .mid file works as expected... fine and dandy
but the .xml file does very strange things when you call up the Quantize function...

Please let me know what you find and we'll go from there...

Thanks much
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:38 AM   #2
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After importing the files, the .mid file seems to work ok. If the xml file is imported with Import MIDI tempo map to project tempo map at xxx selected, quantize does seem to act up. When selecting some notes, they seem to disappear from the editor. And if the setting is All notes, they all disappear.

However, if the xml file is imported without importing the tempo map, it seems to work just fine. So the problem seems to be related to the xml tempo map.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:09 AM   #3
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thanks very much X.... I think that might just solve the problem

yet it brings up a question.... does it mean that if we have both a midi file and a tempo map that quantize will behave like that? I'll have to check that out myself too...
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:19 AM   #4
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OK so for me... clearly there is some problem with the xml file

Xpander and hopi both see the notes vanish [or really all get moved to the extreme left of the item] when trying to use quantize.

I find this happening even if I import without the tempo map

Now that XML file was exported from reaper. It was the .mid file [which works OK] which was brought into reaper and then exported as an XML file.

Is this a bug or is there something that can fix it????
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:24 AM   #5
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Further testing:

I am thinking more and more it IS a bug with how XML files get imported ...

I say this because importing the .mid file, which is the same notes, AND adding a tempo map with many points still works just fine when using quantize.

I hope X will also dbl check this... and maybe a couple of others plz
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
Xpander and hopi both see the notes vanish [or really all get moved to the extreme left of the item] when trying to use quantize.
I'll be damned, that's what seems to happen. So, for some reason they all get bunched up at the start of the item if trying to quantize.

I tested some more to see if there's any difference with .mid files and in-project MIDI in this regard, but couldn't find any. No matter which is exported as MusicXML files, it's the same results when importing back. The only difference maker I have found is if the tempo map is also imported or not.

I have no means to test those files on other DAWs right now, so can't check possible export problem.
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:39 AM   #7
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thanks for the ongoing detective work X...

dbl check this, and also what I find is it makes no diff if the xml comes from reaper itself or from Sibelius....

and for me even if I import the xml without a tempo map, it still does not work with quantize....
but mid files, even with tempo map do work as expected...

but here is another twist:

Import the xml... [we know it won't work with Q]
then make a new track, with an empty mid item of the same lenght or longer than the xml track...
copy all the notes from the xml track and paste them into that new empty
midi item...
Now quantize will work ok on that ...

But... I think this is a bug and in our case a serious PITA one.
Music XML export is the 'way' to go when there is a lot of expression in the Sibelius files...

we have noticed some other issues that involve how the notation gets done but we'll get into that later
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:26 PM   #8
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Ok here is what I see and experience when trying to quantize an imported xml file...

watch what happens to the notes in the midi ed.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:07 PM   #9
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I checked these XLM and Midi files per PM, before I looked over this thread.

So I dragged both files into Reaper. Opened up the midi editor and found that all the notes were already quantized in both tracks.

So the first thing I did was "Humanize" both of them separately, both worked very well. Next I Quantized them separately and they Quantized perfectly.

Not sure my friend, do I need to test them differently?
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Old 01-22-2018, 05:04 PM   #10
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Tod plz see new PM... but I'll repeat it here for others to try:

make a simple new midi file on a track

open it in the midi ed and go to notation view
[Notation is under the View menu in the MIDI Ed., key press is Alt+4]
then under File you can export it as an xml file... do that
now drag and drop the xml file into a new track
Open that in the ME and try to quantize it...
in the Quantize dialog, use all note [so you don't need to select any]
and also choose Manual in manual set the grid to 1/8 swing and set the swing to 70%
set the quantize to position and note length

Now by comparison... try the same thing on the original midi file

The prob I have shown happens here on two diff computers... both are Win7-64 and reaper... one reaper is 5.70 and another is a more recent pre release... but the prob is the same on both

thanks for your time and help
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Old 01-22-2018, 10:38 PM   #11
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OK well I think I can safely say this is a bug... I just dbl checked it on yet another system running Win 10, Reaper ver. 5.70 64 bit and the results are always the same.

At the same time here is something we just discovered....
IF you go directly to quantize, you get the unwanted behavior ... the notes all vanish to the left of the item

BUT... if before you go to quantize, you run a very light Humanize on it... like all notes and only change the velocities, say a tiny amount
and THEN run quantize, it works as it should... very strange
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Old 01-23-2018, 09:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
OK well I think I can safely say this is a bug... I just dbl checked it on yet another system running Win 10, Reaper ver. 5.70 64 bit and the results are always the same.

At the same time here is something we just discovered....
IF you go directly to quantize, you get the unwanted behavior ... the notes all vanish to the left of the item

BUT... if before you go to quantize, you run a very light Humanize on it... like all notes and only change the velocities, say a tiny amount
and THEN run quantize, it works as it should... very strange
Hi Hopi, I PMed you but then saw this post.

As I said in the PM, I saved the XLM file, reloaded it, and I had no problem quantizing it. However, then I read your post and realized what I'd done, I had grabbed all the notes and slightly shifted them forward manually before quantizing.

So then I reloaded the XLM I'd saved and tried it again, only this time I slightly shifted the whole midi item ahead and then quantized. Poof, all the notes were gone.
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:53 AM   #13
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Thanks Tod... yeah now you are seeing what the problem is, and like I've said, it must be a bug.

However, thanks to a clue from you, I've come up with a workaround solution for the moment.. like until the DEV's actually fix it

Here is the work around:

in the MIDI Ed., before trying to quantize, use the Humanize function BUT set the top two sliders to zero [far left side] and then set the velocity amount to just 1%... clk OK
This has barely any effect on the MIDI... in other words it only tweaks the velocities an amount that would be hard to notice...

Now you can run quantize functions on the notes and they will not vanish.

PITA but better than nuffin'...

I am satisfied now that this IS a bug, ...something about how reaper's midi quantize works with imported xml music files. It is the same no matter if the xml is made in reaper or sibelius or whatever...
I have proven it on three completely separate computers [all windows] and it is the same bug on all of those.

Thanks to everyone who has helped test and dbl check this.
Now we hope for a real fix.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:35 AM   #14
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sure would be good to see one of the DEV's over here for a quick comment
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:50 AM   #15
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Just catching up... if you export XML from REAPER and re-import, is it still unquantizable?
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Just catching up... if you export XML from REAPER and re-import, is it still unquantizable?
Thanks for being here [and realy just for being!]

Actually that is part of the whole issue... I thought I'd made it clear in the thread...

It does not matter if the XML file comes from some other program, such as Sibelius... or if it is made by Reaper.
As I thought I said,
1-make a simple midi file
2-open it in the notation view
3-export as xml
4-now import that xml to a new track
5-open that in the MIDI Ed. and try to Quantize it... ouch

and:
maybe a clue to the problem is...
Run the Humanize on it first, with a setting of 1% on the velocities and nothing on the other Humanzie settings...
NOW go back to Quantize and it will work OK

Strange, isn't it?

Thanks again
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:17 AM   #17
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Fixed for the next build, thanks for the report.
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:27 AM   #18
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OH THANKS!!!!

and thanks to you for all you do!
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