Duplicating content ruins envelopes [not fixed, potential fix in far future update]

[theFRXST]

When I duplicate content my once smooth envelope curve gets messed up with a ton of extra points. Is this an error? on purpose? some weird option I have to config?

Shit like this is super frustrating when I'm trying to move to Reaper from Ableton.

Anyone that reads this and knows whats up, please let me know!

[Allspice]

"Curved envelopes altered when copying regions or items within regions"

I'll see your bug and raise you one more! I guess I hadn't noticed this yet because I haven't delved into regions too much yet. Anyway, confirmed here on my system:

Mac OS X 10.12.6
REAPER 5.70 x64

Relevant settings:
[x] envelope points move with media items
[x] Automatically add edge points when editing: Media Items

Duplicated with the following behavior:

Created MIDI item
Looped it once
Created a few automation lines for an FX parameter on the same track
Edited their curvature
- for the sake of fun, make sure there are points at the beginning and end of the region to account for the need for interpolation.
Created a project region containing the looped MIDI item
Used the mouse modifier for "Copy contents of project region"
Create a copy of the region.

Result: Added envelope points in both items, even though the curve should be duplicatable 1:1 as the start and end points are within the region and copied over.

Similar behavior is also observable under these circumstances:

Created MIDI item
Created a curved automation line for an FX parameter on the same track, with the start and end points falling on the region edges.
Created a project region containing the MIDI item
Copied the MIDI item and pasted it elsewhere.

Result: Altered envelope curvature on the destination item.

[Allspice]

By the way, cool website/music.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by theFRXST

When I duplicate content my once smooth envelope curve gets messed up with a ton of extra points. Is this an error? on purpose? some weird option I have to config?

Confirmed here too. (v5.70)

Although, I don't think that it is actually a bug:

When you copy a region, the intent is usually to duplicate *exactly* what is inside the region, down to the smallest envelope automation.

However, curved envelopes such as Bézier cannot be precisely duplicated if the region does not start exactly on the node. There is no node value that gives "Bézier curve, starting halfway", for example.

Therefore, in order to copy curves with exact precision, when the copied region does not start exactly on a node, the curve must first be converted to interpolated linear segments.

Here is an example using an automation item:




EDIT: I am assuming that the region and the envelope node in your GIF do fall on exactly the same time position. If they do align precisely, and the envelope nonetheless gets interpolated, it may be a bug.

EDIT 2: Oh drat. I have just noticed that it sometimes even happens when the region and the nodes are precisely aligned:



I have attached an RPP. To replicate, copy region 1 twice to the right as in the GIF.

EDIT 3: If one looks closely, one can see at 0:15s in the GIF that the slow start/end point somehow changes to Bézier after duplicating to the right.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by Allspice

"Curved envelopes altered when copying regions or items within regions"

I can confirm this too, and it happens even without MIDI items:



I checked the track's "state chunk", and it seems that the original Bézier point loses its curve values: "PT 10 0.06 5 1 0 0 -0.54469" becomes just "PT 10 0.06 5 1".

Originally Posted by Allspice

I'll see your bug and raise you one more! I guess I hadn't noticed this yet because I haven't delved into regions too much yet.

Same here. Because regions often mess up the tempo envelope, I (sadly) avoid using them.

[juliansader]

More weirdness:

[Allspice]

Nice work again Julian! You know if we billed regions as “automation randomizers” we might pick up some more converts from other programs. Imagine the creative possibilities.

Regarding interpolation, it seems to me like the “proper” behavior would be to do as little interpolation as possible, and only on the destination envelope or when creating AIs. You can see from my GIF that the item/region I copy does have envelope points at the start AND end of the item. I’m not a doctor, but interpolation seems unnecessary in this case.

I’m not at my computer at the moment but maybe it has to do with start-end points that are created automatically? I’ll mock up a project file when I get a chance.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by Allspice

You can see from my GIF that the item/region I copy does have envelope points at the start AND end of the item. I’m not a doctor, but interpolation seems unnecessary in this case.

I can confirm this (in EDIT 2 above.)

These bugs might be related to another bug: Select/Copy/Delete "points in time selection" unreliable - depends on how time selection was drawn. It seems that REAPER does not realize that the leftmost point is actually within the region or time selection, and therefore tries to interpolate.

Here I use "Envelope: Select points in time selection", and as expected, the problematic point that doesn't get copied correctly also doesn't get selected:



I used a script to check the exact positions of the envelope point, the time selection start, and the region start. They are all at exactly 10.000000000000000s, to full 15 decimal places floating point precision.

[theFRXST]

I'm glad I'm not the only one running into these issues.

I don't work with a ton of hardware, so things like this are completely unacceptable. Sadly I'm going to have to go back to Ableton if I want to get things done. I'll be putting Reaper on watchlist, until certain things are fixed to be considered a full time DAW (for myself). There's so much to like about it. It's the little things that matter.

[nappies]

I support this topic!Please developers pay attention on these problems. Copying automation is not feasible quickly and conveniently.Is it possible to do this simply and quickly and accurately as for example like in Ableton.

[juliansader]

FIXED in v5.75!

Or rather, *partly* fixed, since older projects may need to be tweaked to get rid of the OP problem:

Originally Posted by schwa

With that project file, if you edit the envelope point at bar 17 to snap it to the bar (the bar it appears to already be snapped to), the bug should no longer appear.

The way the project is stored in pre18 and before, that envelope point position gets rounded to slightly before the bar. If the point is edited in pre19 and the project re-saved, its position should be on the bar.

[theFRXST]

Originally Posted by juliansader

FIXED in v5.75!

Or rather, *partly* fixed, since older projects may need to be tweaked to get rid of the OP problem:

Not really the only fixed that the first point is within a region now instead of outside. Curves still get ruined and render with a ton of points still.

I'll be watching Reaper like a hawk and pray 6.0 is a big update.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by juliansader

However, curved envelopes such as Bézier cannot be precisely duplicated if the region does not start exactly on the node. There is no node value that gives "Bézier curve, starting halfway", for example.

That is a correct explanation of why REAPER renders envelope curves when doing any edit that falls in the middle of a curved segment. We have some improvements for this in the works but they are several releases in the future.

[theFRXST]

Originally Posted by schwa

That is a correct explanation of why REAPER renders envelope curves when doing any edit that falls in the middle of a curved segment. We have some improvements for this in the works but they are several releases in the future.

Thanks for the update schwa. I think you explained this in one of the pre threads too. We explain our self's how we'd like the behavior of them to work previously, you know what's up I look forward to the future release that improves this.