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Old 05-18-2018, 06:49 AM   #1
Khorus
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Default Disabling MIDI CC Chasing in Reaper 5.x

Hello good people of this forum,

Yesterday I was having a rehearsal with my band. I migrated our live instruments (VSTIs) and pre-recorded back tracks from Cubase to Reaper.

My guitar player uses a Kemper Profiling Amp (a fancy POD) and we control it via MIDI. We send MIDI patch changes and MIDI CCs for real time control (Say, a Volume ramp).

Now, Reaper (unlike Cubase) has CC chasing. It can be great say for film composers who'd like to have their correct articulations recalled when they press Play. In my case, it is not so great. Everytime I change to a new guitar patch from a MIDI program change, it gets the last gain from the previous CC.

Is it possible to disable the MIDI CCs chasing? Thanks in advance,

Marc aka Khorus
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Old 05-18-2018, 06:55 AM   #2
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AFAIK Cubase also has MIDI CC chasing...

There's no option for disabling CC chasing in Reaper IIRC.
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Old 05-18-2018, 07:09 AM   #3
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AFAIK Cubase also has MIDI CC chasing...

There's no option for disabling CC chasing in Reaper IIRC.
Cubase has CC Chasing? Then why my gains are OK? (Using the very same MIDI tracks which I exported from Cubase). We should have a "Disable CC Chase" in the preferences panel I guess.
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Old 05-18-2018, 07:28 AM   #4
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OK, here's why my Cubase setup works and not Reaper. You can *SELECT* which MIDI events you'd like to be chased back in Cubase. We need something like this in Reaper as well!
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File Type: jpg CUBASE MIDI PERFS.jpg (62.0 KB, 335 views)
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Old 05-18-2018, 07:42 AM   #5
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One way you could combat this is simply force the CC that adjusts gain along with program change?
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:31 AM   #6
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Would it be possible to jam those CC chase updates with a LUA script?

Had a quick look at the API, there's a few MIDI CC commands... I'm just wondering.
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Old 02-08-2023, 09:35 PM   #7
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Ran into this issue today. I find it a worrysome that something important as this gets reported in 2018, and in 2022 there's still no solution...

I admit when I was a 100% softsynth user, most of the hardcoded MIDI behaviour made sense. It looks like not too many people are using REAPER with actual external MIDI hardware, otherwise many of these hardcoded options would drive you crazy quickly and people would complain about it LOUDLY! I guess this is what you get when 99% of your userbase are hobbyists with no external hardware at all...

I too want an option for the same thing: just send the raw MIDI events when I press play and do not do anything else! Then an option to send an All Notes Off message when I hit stop (which we already have, that's good). But I want to turn the damn resending of all CC values that precedes the play position completely off.

I know this is a REAPER forum, but I'm getting fed up with all the MIDI bullshit, so I'm asking if you guys can recommend another good sequencer on Windows where MIDI actually works like one would expect to and is configurable? Kind of what Logic Pro was (is?) on the Mac; now that's was a fine piece of software intended for professionals, written at the heyday of MIDI, so naturally MIDI related functionality is just on a whole different level in that package...
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Old 02-09-2023, 01:11 AM   #8
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Ran into this issue today. I find it a worrysome that something important as this gets reported in 2018, and in 2022 there's still no solution...
Perhaps check the latest dev build?
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Old 02-09-2023, 01:13 AM   #9
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It wasn't fixed in 4 years, so why would be in the dev build then?
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Old 02-09-2023, 01:33 AM   #10
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It wasn't fixed in 4 years, so why would be in the dev build then?
Just check release notes? Maybe it's not what this thread about, but there are some changes. And it is not a bug, because even the thread is not in bug reports, is it?
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Old 02-09-2023, 06:45 AM   #11
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Default I'm hesitant to post this reply, but let's see how I get on...

Hi all,

I am slightly hesitant to post this in this thread, as I fear being shouted it! Especially as it's a bit old and the OP might not be around any more. But I am going to go for it. Be gentle with me.

I have a feeling (and I can't prove it) that the Reaper Dev's -- fab as they are -- aren't about to suddenly go and revolutionise what Reaper does MIDI-wise. Reaper MIDI mostly works pretty well even though I admit it has its detractors. I use it ALL THE TIME, both for VST instruments but also (importantly) it for some nineties-era MIDI synths via a USB/DIN MIDI Interface (and also a USB Nektar Controller Keyboard). It's great! I think to myself what it's like now, with the the level of control and flexibility I now have, and the ability to edit so easily when compared to using primitive hardware sequencers back in the day. Then a little tear pops into the corner of my eye; and I want to bow down and kiss Justin's foot, bluntly. Sometimes we have to count our blessings.

Of course, there is good MIDI stuff in other DAWs too -- I don't deny it. In any event, it's usually some slightly more niche cases like this where MIDI troubles arise. Of course, that doesn't mean the OP doesn't (didn't -- I know it was a while back now!) have a genuine problem that needs solving. Let's think about that, then -- the reason I piped up here in the first place.

I think think the Reaper Dev's want to push you down an automation/envelope route rather than a MIDI CC route generally speaking. As John Novak says -- nothing has changed in this case re. MIDI in 4 years. It seems unlikely that it will now.

Now, I don't know the specific answer here, but is there a different way to think about this? The OP mentions gain changes being wrong when he hits the control on his guitar thingamajig. Is it possible to (in Reaper's "learn" mode) to make that control change affect a trim or envelope on that Reaper track instead (or as well)? Then you can use that MIDI CC signal to trigger a patch change on the MIDI device as I think the OP is saying, and ALSO trigger a trim/envelope "Gain" change on the Reaper track itself.

I know it sounds convoluted and I've probably explained this badly -- but this I think could work. Worth giving it a go? Do ask questions if what I'm saying doesn't make sense -- I'm not even sure I understand it myself!
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Old 02-09-2023, 07:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiddieNam View Post
Hi all,

I am slightly hesitant to post this in this thread, as I fear being shouted it! Especially as it's a bit old and the OP might not be around any more. But I am going to go for it. Be gentle with me.

I have a feeling (and I can't prove it) that the Reaper Dev's -- fab as they are -- aren't about to suddenly go and revolutionise what Reaper does MIDI-wise. Reaper MIDI mostly works pretty well even though I admit it has its detractors. I use it ALL THE TIME, both for VST instruments but also (importantly) it for some nineties-era MIDI synths via a USB/DIN MIDI Interface (and also a USB Nektar Controller Keyboard). It's great! I think to myself what it's like now, with the the level of control and flexibility I now have, and the ability to edit so easily when compared to using primitive hardware sequencers back in the day. Then a little tear pops into the corner of my eye; and I want to bow down and kiss Justin's foot, bluntly. Sometimes we have to count our blessings.

Of course, there is good MIDI stuff in other DAWs too -- I don't deny it. In any event, it's usually some slightly more niche cases like this where MIDI troubles arise. Of course, that doesn't mean the OP doesn't (didn't -- I know it was a while back now!) have a genuine problem that needs solving. Let's think about that, then -- the reason I piped up here in the first place.

I think think the Reaper Dev's want to push you down an automation/envelope route rather than a MIDI CC route generally speaking. As John Novak says -- nothing has changed in this case re. MIDI in 4 years. It seems unlikely that it will now.

Now, I don't know the specific answer here, but is there a different way to think about this? The OP mentions gain changes being wrong when he hits the control on his guitar thingamajig. Is it possible to (in Reaper's "learn" mode) to make that control change affect a trim or envelope on that Reaper track instead (or as well)? Then you can use that MIDI CC signal to trigger a patch change on the MIDI device as I think the OP is saying, and ALSO trigger a trim/envelope "Gain" change on the Reaper track itself.

I know it sounds convoluted and I've probably explained this badly -- but this I think could work. Worth giving it a go? Do ask questions if what I'm saying doesn't make sense -- I'm not even sure I understand it myself!
Yeah, I've done a few albums in REAPER, so you can get things done with its MIDI support, no doubt. But saying it's "rough around the edges" is actually a very kind way to put it. I don't think anyone would call MIDI in REAPER "world class"...

What makes me kinda sad is that like you're saying there's no motivation for significant progress in this area. I'd bet on it it will be same clunky mess in 10 years' time. Whereas Logic and Cubase *were* on a whole different level in the late 90s/early 2000s already. I'm not even asking for something novel -- I would like to have the same good MIDI functionality that was kinda "standard" in the best sequencers 20+ years ago! Where's some cool stuff like Logic's environment?

Dunno, it's just the same kind of disappointment I have with Linux GUI apps... after 20-30 years' time, all the combined efforts of all Linux devs still couldn't produce a *single* good Photoshop alternative. Yes yes, there's "The Gimp"... well, the name says it all... I hate to say this, but I'm gonna check out Cubase 12 again, just see how it feels after 10 years of REAPER. Or maybe Bitwig studio is the answer, not sure. Perhaphs I'll just use REAPER for audio stuff, and do MIDI sequencing in, well, proper MIDI sequencers.

It's just all these little things added together that puts me off. Downloaded the latest REAPER yesterday, you still can't set the damned background colours for the MIDI editor properly... C'mon guys, how long would that take to fix? 1 hour? And I'm being generous. I *almost* get the feeling the MIDI parts of the app are purposefully ignored out of spite or something. It's just this level of neglect and disinterest in adding minimal polish is kinda offputting, especially because I'm a developer too. I wouldn't put off such basic fixes for soooo long for stuff that makes my app look quite amateurish (people have been complainig about that light-gray background colour in the MIDI editor that you cannot change for ages; it's like a running joke at this point). Look at VCVRack, single man effort, but can't find a fault in it, the guy has attention to detail, that's for sure.

Okay, enough of negative ranting, time for sleep... And maybe time to go back to Cubase as I'll grow old and die before REAPER catches up...
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Old 02-09-2023, 11:43 PM   #13
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This error may be caused by the wrong reading of the NRPN. The latest DEV version has solved this problem. You can test it.
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Old 02-10-2023, 05:10 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Novak View Post
Yeah, I've done a few albums in REAPER, so you can get things done with its MIDI support, no doubt. But saying it's "rough around the edges" is actually a very kind way to put it. I don't think anyone would call MIDI in REAPER "world class"...

What makes me kinda sad is that like you're saying there's no motivation for significant progress in this area. I'd bet on it it will be same clunky mess in 10 years' time. Whereas Logic and Cubase *were* on a whole different level in the late 90s/early 2000s already. I'm not even asking for something novel -- I would like to have the same good MIDI functionality that was kinda "standard" in the best sequencers 20+ years ago! Where's some cool stuff like Logic's environment?

Dunno, it's just the same kind of disappointment I have with Linux GUI apps... after 20-30 years' time, all the combined efforts of all Linux devs still couldn't produce a *single* good Photoshop alternative. Yes yes, there's "The Gimp"... well, the name says it all... I hate to say this, but I'm gonna check out Cubase 12 again, just see how it feels after 10 years of REAPER. Or maybe Bitwig studio is the answer, not sure. Perhaphs I'll just use REAPER for audio stuff, and do MIDI sequencing in, well, proper MIDI sequencers.

It's just all these little things added together that puts me off. Downloaded the latest REAPER yesterday, you still can't set the damned background colours for the MIDI editor properly... C'mon guys, how long would that take to fix? 1 hour? And I'm being generous. I *almost* get the feeling the MIDI parts of the app are purposefully ignored out of spite or something. It's just this level of neglect and disinterest in adding minimal polish is kinda offputting, especially because I'm a developer too. I wouldn't put off such basic fixes for soooo long for stuff that makes my app look quite amateurish (people have been complainig about that light-gray background colour in the MIDI editor that you cannot change for ages; it's like a running joke at this point). Look at VCVRack, single man effort, but can't find a fault in it, the guy has attention to detail, that's for sure.

Okay, enough of negative ranting, time for sleep... And maybe time to go back to Cubase as I'll grow old and die before REAPER catches up...
Few things on this then.

(Although I can't find them) I have read other quotes and things around here that suggest that the Dev's might regard MIDI as a secondary consideration. I don't want to misrepresent that as I can't find the other posts right now, but I just get that feeling. I think there might be a view that MIDI is a secondary use of Reaper as a whole, with the emphasis on sound recording and mixing etc, which undoubtedly Reaper is very good at. Within that, Automation in Reaper is very good and suspect is the preferred solution over MIDI as and when it can be applied. Not much use if you need to send a MIDI CC Patch Change to your classical Yamaha DX7, of course!

Alongside that, we have obviously had MIDI 2 fairly recently. I think the world waits somewhat to see what that really means, and I do wonder (and I really don't know) if that means the dev's are hanging on to see what requirements they might wish to build in before any sort of substantial MIDI overhaul. I'm not personally very convinced that MIDI 2 is much of a gamechanger as it's a bit late to the party and tech moves on, but who knows?

Anyway, where does that leave us? I still don't have much problem with Reaper's MIDI personally. I find I can pretty much do whatever I want with it, both for soft synths and external hardware. But... but...

I must concede my use case it limited. I never use Reaper for playing live -- in those cases I am usually just being a classic real-time synthster with no real sequencing or backing track needs. I can generally prep all my patch-change needs into the hardware synths themselves in various other ways.

Even recording, I'm not usually using MIDI CC for such things as patch changes. If I am using more than one noise out of something, it's just a different sound on a new Reaper track that happens to emanate from the same synth, and I'll record them one at a time without difficulty. I sometimes use MIDI CC for modulation etc -- but that just works in a hassle free way like everything else.

My point is that I accept that I am not using all the MIDI features that others might need, so I don't want you to think that I'm dismissive of your point of view. I'm certainly not. I won't personally be moving away from Reaper as I love it (and I love it in a way that I could never love Cubase when I used to use it) and it fulfils my MIDI needs alongside everything else. If I look at everything in the round (and I have to -- it's not just about the MIDI), I can do everything I need without ever having to close my DAW and change to something else -- alongside a few plugins and my external synths and mics etc, Reaper is genuinely the only studio tool I need. That makes me happy. But, of course, everyone has to find their own way and I 100% accept that there may be people who, for various reasons such as you outline, may need to look elsewhere. It's an interesting discussion, certainly.

PS. You are dead right about Linux etc, too. Various big distro's etc constantly in the past tried to set themselves as PC or Mac alternatives, but the lack of standardisation, the burgeoning of choice and it just being too hard for non-techies straight off the bat has limited its appeal. Luckily Linux has found its niche as the Unix alternative in Enterprise IT. There is good open source stuff out there (Firefox is great, for example), but I agree with you. GIMP can produce good results but it is hellish to use and hell bent on staying difficult in a world where all its competitors say "press this button for background removal" -- BANG!. So, yes. Even MuseScore (arguably always better than paid-for alternatives such as the really awful Sibelius) has upped its game with V4.x and noticed that it needs to be a bit more user friendly. Well done them.

BTW, I like the MIDI files MuseScore exports; it's not that unusual for me to compose in it as a person who likes to see the notes on the page anyway. Which makes me a liar with what I said above about not needing anything else but Reaper. But have you considered it? When I import MuseScore created MIDI files into Reaper (at which point MuseScore's involvement ends), it keeps the timing absolutely immaculate, respects gracenotes and repeats, interprets classical tempo and dynamics and articulation marks in a sensible and meaningful MIDI way; which I love. Have you ever considered it for your composing needs? Appreciate that not everyone works well with old fashioned musical scores -- but it's how I learned all those years ago, so, y'know. Oh, and MuseScore V4.x can now use your VST plugins, too.

Last edited by SiddieNam; 02-10-2023 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Added a "PS"!
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Old 02-10-2023, 08:35 AM   #15
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I have been engaged in the production of traditional MIDI, and still use the hardware synthesizer. Compared with other DAWs, reaper has done the best in supporting traditional MIDI hardware.
Of course, there are some special occasions that need to be matched by writing scripts.
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Old 02-10-2023, 03:00 PM   #16
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It wasn't fixed in 4 years, so why would be in the dev build then?
A fix for this in the dev build, as was already pointed out to you. Instead of trying it out and saying "thanks for the fix" or engaging with the devs if it didn't work, you continue to act childish and write paragraphs of complaints. Ridiculous.
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Old 02-10-2023, 07:13 PM   #17
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The latest DEV version should completely solve this problem.
Excellent!
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Old 02-11-2023, 04:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by SiddieNam View Post
Few things on this then.

(Although I can't find them) I have read other quotes and things around here that suggest that the Dev's might regard MIDI as a secondary consideration. I don't want to misrepresent that as I can't find the other posts right now, but I just get that feeling. I think there might be a view that MIDI is a secondary use of Reaper as a whole, with the emphasis on sound recording and mixing etc, which undoubtedly Reaper is very good at. Within that, Automation in Reaper is very good and suspect is the preferred solution over MIDI as and when it can be applied. Not much use if you need to send a MIDI CC Patch Change to your classical Yamaha DX7, of course!
Yeah, and to be fair, audio handling in Logic wasn't all that great, and the automation was buggy as hell. Grouping/bussing tracks was also limited/slowly/clunk/buggy/etc. That was on Logic 9, no idea if things have been improved in Logic X since.

For 100% audio work REAPER is pure bliss, no disagreements there. I love it for audio work, and while it has some quirks, you can get used to those, and the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and the occasional clunkiness.

But MIDI? Every time I download a new version and open the MIDI editor, anticipating something great to happen with bated breath, what does happen? I'm just going through the five stages of grief YET AGAIN! FOR THE 100TH TIME!!!

AND THE @#$*@(*&^*( MIDI EDITOR BACKGROUND IS STILL GREY! I'm 100% sure the devs are doing this out of spite at this stage to troll people.

Why this is so frustrating (to me) is perhaps even *because* REAPER is great in the audio department, and generally it's so customisable. I just *wish* they hired another guy who's super into MIDI, uses MIDI, understands MIDI, and so on. Right now it sometimes feels as when a developer with very modest artistic skills and UX works on a paint program... yeah, the program does what it's supposed to use "on paper", but the artists are tearing their hair out when actually using it.

So yeah, I'm going to continue to bitch and moan until MIDI greatness is achieved! :P

As I see it:

Logic = started as a MIDI sequencer; it has its prestigious place in the "holy trinity" of oldskool MIDI sequencers (Cakewalk, Logic, Cubase). Sadly it's Mac only; if I was still a Mac fanboy, I'd just use Logic 100% of the time for composing, and maybe REAPER for final mixing and grunt audio work. But yeah, audio support in Logic feels a bit tacked on.

REAPER = started as a pure multi-track audio workstation, and MIDI feels tacked on, neglected, merely tolerated, etc.

Great talking to you man!

PS: For the other guys replying with snappy one-liners to my finely crafted paragraphs expressing deeply felt frustration: bitchin' about someone bitchin' is still bitchin'! Have a good one! :sunglasses:
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Old 02-11-2023, 04:47 PM   #19
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Hi,

No offence but its easy to change the midi background color.
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Old 02-11-2023, 05:05 PM   #20
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Hi,

No offence but its easy to change the midi background color.
I was referring to the background colour of the UI pane itself, not the just the MIDI view (yes, that can be changed easily).

Many themes work around this by setting various colours in the MIDI editor the same grey as the dialog pane's fixed grey colour -- it's a longstanding issue.

Or you can use a dark Windows theme, but that has its own set of problems...

TL;DR the theming system is nice and flexible, but you can't 100% theme everything, such as the dialogs rendered with the default Windows colours. That creates some ugliness especially in the MIDI editor.
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Old 02-11-2023, 06:14 PM   #21
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Okay, so I've just tried the dev build and indeed, the "Chase CC/PC" checkbox turned off is the behaviour what I'm after when cutting up MIDI items.

It just seemed so unlikely that a current dev build fixes the *exact* issue I just encountered, and 4 years after originally reporting it... but hey, I'm not complaining!

Thanks, this is great!
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Old 03-01-2023, 04:01 AM   #22
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Few things on this then.

BTW, I like the MIDI files MuseScore exports; it's not that unusual for me to compose in it as a person who likes to see the notes on the page anyway. [...] Have you ever considered it for your composing needs? Appreciate that not everyone works well with old fashioned musical scores -- but it's how I learned all those years ago, so, y'know. Oh, and MuseScore V4.x can now use your VST plugins, too.
Score notation and me are not friends, never learned to read it properly, so for me it's plain torment. I'm just playing things by ear
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