Old 07-28-2018, 08:10 PM   #1
natonative
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Default MIDI Notes not snapping

AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Does anybody know why my midi notes aren't snapping? If I zoom right in, I can see that they haven't quite snapped exactly to the grid and it's really frustrating and I'm not sure what's causing it.

I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the tempo changes? I have tempo changes on the tempo track but this midi shouldn't be affected by that. Also, I have separate midi containers that are set to different tempos but again, this midi container should and is only following the projects tempo.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!?
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Old 07-29-2018, 02:35 AM   #2
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Are you talking about really tiny amount which is only visible when you zoom in? If so, this could be due to snapping (or not?) to whole samples or project sample rate?
I think there are tickboxes for this in project settings and snap settings.
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:26 AM   #3
natonative
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Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. The notes are snapping but the snapping to an area just before the gridlines.. bizarre. Thanks Donzy, Ill check it out.
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:31 AM   #4
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I checked project settings and they were assigned to beats instead of time. I'm not sure why so I changed to time but nothing changed.

To be more precise, midi containers and audio files are snapping to my selected measure on the grid. And even some tracks midi notes are snapping to the correct measure. Just a couple of tracks which aren't.
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Old 07-29-2018, 09:11 AM   #5
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See the first two posts of this thread:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=184790

The gist of it is that MIDI notes always align to MIDI ticks, but MIDI ticks don't always align with the DAW time/beat grid for various reasons.

One reason is that MIDI ticks start at the beginning of the MIDI item but the MIDI item might not start on the DAW grid. And when I say the beginning of the MIDI item I mean when it was first created...snapping the edge of the item subsequently won't change where the ticks are. So this explains why when you zoom right in you will sometimes see that a snapped MIDI note does not line up to the grid...it's snapped to the tick nearest the grid.

This mismatch between MIDI tick grid and DAW grid does indeed seem un-intuitive and confusing but there are technical/ mathematical reasons for it I guess.
Interesting that in Reaper prior to version 5.28 an internal compensation was made such that snapped MIDI notes did display exactly on the DAW grid even though they were sometimes actually and necessarily off the grid, but from 5.28 on it was decided to display the notes in line with their actual tick location.
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:08 PM   #6
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As Goldreap explained, the problem is that the MIDI item's start position is slightly off-grid, so the MIDI item's internal grid is slightly misaligned with the project's grid.

If you change the MIDI editor's timebase (ruler) from "Project beats" to "Source beats", you will notice that the notes can suddenly be nicely aligned with the source beats' grid.

Also, beware of stretched MIDI items, as the stretching may de-sync the MIDI item's internal ticks/grid vs the project grid: Cut/Paste in ME, can someone explain this?

The best way to avoid these issues is to make sure that every MIDI item's *source* starts on the grid (even a very fine grid like 1/128).

NB: To complicate matters, there may a difference between
1) the start position of the MIDI source, and
2) the start position of the MIDI item in the arrange view, which is the visible part of the MIDI source.

When you drag a MIDI item's border, you change the visible part, but not necessarily the source position.

There are several ways to correct an existing MIDI item and its source simultaneously, for example:
* Glue the item
* Split the item at the nearest grid, after unlooping/unpooling the item and enabling Preferences -> "Allow trim of MIDI items when splitting").
* Drag the edge if the item and then go to Item Properties and set "Start in source" to 0.
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Old 07-30-2018, 05:31 AM   #7
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Thanks juliansader, great info re 'source' and how to deal with it.
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Old 07-31-2018, 01:53 PM   #8
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Default Me too

"Also, beware of stretched MIDI items, as the stretching may de-sync the MIDI item's internal ticks/grid vs the project grid: Cut/Paste in ME, can someone explain this?"

Please!

Thanks from me too,Julian for the rest of yr post.
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Old 07-31-2018, 04:43 PM   #9
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Thanks heaps for the info guys! Can't lie, I'm a bit disappointed? How come other DAWs don't have this problem or are they just lying about the real positions?

I solved this issue by creating a new track and copying and pasting the midi data but this seems like a ridiculous workaround.

What do you mean by stretching a MIDI item? Actually stretching the sound itself to make it longer or just making a MIDI item longer in order to fit more notes in? Because if it's the latter, I do this all the time. Generally part of my work flow (I have the automatic looping option turned off).
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Old 07-31-2018, 04:45 PM   #10
natonative
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Also, is it necessary to even worry about? Should I be attempting to fix it?
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Old 07-31-2018, 04:50 PM   #11
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Also, also, I can confirm that gluing the items as mentioned above solves this problem.
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Old 07-31-2018, 05:34 PM   #12
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Default Same Snapping Problems Using Drum Sounds

I was just getting ready to post about MIDI snapping problems when I saw this thread.

I'm using a virtual drum machine comprised of multiple instances of RS5K but can't even get short drum files to snap to the MIDI Editor grid. They seem to snap to "invisible" grid lines, but never to the visible ones I want. Even using relatively coarse grid spacings like 1/8th or 1/16th notes, nothing lines up.

I've experimented with the snap tool settings in both the Arrange Editor and the MIDI editor to no avail.

I Googled this issue and found numerous similar complaints. I can't tell you how disappointed I'm going to be if there is no solution to such a BASIC problem.
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Old 07-31-2018, 06:40 PM   #13
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natonative...my guess is that all DAWs have this 'problem' but that some do it the Reaper pre 5.28 way.
I would say that for the usual basic MIDI work (I realise I'm being vague here) it doesn't matter...you won't hear a tick out!
But there must be reasons for Reaper to have it this way...
Here's an example of a scenario where it helped me to know about this and to be able to zoom in to see the actual note positions:
Melda MDrummer's optional 'MIDI command method' uses MIDI notes to trigger specific drum patterns...one note will trigger say a one bar pattern of several drums. If that note's tick start is the tiniest bit later than the DAW grid the pattern doesn't start when it should. ..so when I create a MIDI item into which I intend to put those MIDI commands I first make sure the item is snapped to grid..then the ticks will line up with the DAW grid.

Last edited by Goldreap; 07-31-2018 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 08-01-2018, 01:28 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldreap View Post
natonative...my guess is that all DAWs have this 'problem' but that some do it the Reaper pre 5.28 way.
I would say that for the usual basic MIDI work (I realise I'm being vague here) it doesn't matter...you won't hear a tick out!
But there must be reasons for Reaper to have it this way...
Here's an example of a scenario where it helped me to know about this and to be able to zoom in to see the actual note positions:
Melda MDrummer's optional 'MIDI command method' uses MIDI notes to trigger specific drum patterns...one note will trigger say a one bar pattern of several drums. If that note's tick start is the tiniest bit later than the DAW grid the pattern doesn't start when it should. ..so when I create a MIDI item into which I intend to put those MIDI commands I first make sure the item is snapped to grid..then the ticks will line up with the DAW grid.
It may matter for notation view..... will have a look today.
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Old 08-01-2018, 03:33 AM   #15
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to add to the discussion, i've been using project beat based midi items for years now and have recently had 2 instances where midi notes would refuse to snap to a visible grid line, jumping ahead or back. gluing solved. may have been user error.

might be helpful to have a "lock" on this pref if that's the root of the problem. i never want anything but project beat based midi items, ever. even if they get stretched, i would want them to show prj grid (and iirc they do)
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Old 08-01-2018, 11:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natonative View Post
What do you mean by stretching a MIDI item? Actually stretching the sound itself to make it longer or just making a MIDI item longer in order to fit more notes in? Because if it's the latter, I do this all the time. Generally part of my work flow (I have the automatic looping option turned off).
I was actually referring to changing its playback rate (alt+mousedrag on the edge).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldreap View Post
natonative...my guess is that all DAWs have this 'problem' but that some do it the Reaper pre 5.28 way.
Indeed, this problem is inherent in how (standard) MIDI works, when combined with modern DAWs that allow MIDI items to start at any time position. A few DAWs, particularly Samplitude and DP, IIRC, solved the problem by using extraordinarily high PPQs *internally* (many billions of MIDI ticks per second) so that MIDI ticks have the same time resolution as audio. The disadvantage of this solution is that, when the MIDI is exported as MIDI files at lower PPQs, the MIDI events lose their apparent alignment with the project grid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EarBud View Post
I Googled this issue and found numerous similar complaints. I can't tell you how disappointed I'm going to be if there is no solution to such a BASIC problem.
The solution is in the hands of the user: if you make sure that MIDI item sources start on the grid (and playback rate isn't stretched), there shouldn't be any problem.
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Old 08-01-2018, 12:27 PM   #17
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I get the feeling that the problems being discussed in this thread may not all be based on the same issues. I went ahead and started a new post ("MIDI Ghost Grid") so that I could go into more detail about my specific problem.

If anyone here reads it and has any suggestions it would really be appreciated.

Thanks.
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natonative View Post
Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. The notes are snapping but the snapping to an area just before the gridlines.. bizarre. Thanks Donzy, Ill check it out.
It happens with audio as well and it is driving me insane. I really need to know what is happening here. I've seen multiple posts about this over the years.

Is there an answer?
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