Old 12-20-2018, 02:31 PM   #1
alxgvr
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Default Post-fader plugins inserts

Hi.

Ardour and Harrison MixBus have one great feature.
You can insert plugins both pre-fader and post-fader on tracks and buses.

99% of the time you would probably stick to traditional prefader...
But. Sometimes it is creative to use postfader position.
You can put clipper there (or any kind of saturation).
In this case, rising volume fader, will drive track output signal in to the plugin.
So, it will clip your signal just like analog consoles do. You will never get over 0 db level.
Rising fader will not only increase volume, but also harmonic content of the track, adding depth and presence. Immitation of classic analog workflow.
No more digital clipping. No more red indicators.

Or you can put limiter/compressor or just meter plugins.
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:36 PM   #2
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+1. So much this. Would solve so many annoying workarounds.
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:39 PM   #3
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+1. I really miss this feature in Reaper.
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:32 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alxgvr View Post
Hi.

Ardour and Harrison MixBus have one great feature.
You can insert plugins both pre-fader and post-fader on tracks and buses
Has been asked for before. But you are the first one who describes a scenario besides metering that makes sense to me. *

Masi

* OTOH you can achieve this easily by inserting a gain plugin in your chain. For some types of metering I couldn't find such a (easy) workaround.
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Old 12-21-2018, 11:16 AM   #5
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Here's another similar example. Let's say I have a virtual instrument like Kontakt. I then have a few processing plugins after Kontakt - distortion, saturation, compression, etc. I then want to adjust the amount of Kontakt volume that hits those plugins.

Right now, if I move the track fader, it's adjusting everything at the end of the plugin chain. Not very useful. However, if I have Kontakt pre-fader and the plugins post-fader, as Alxgvr said, now I can adjust the level going into those plugins and ride them.

Furthermore, I can write automation or CC data so that I'm using Reaper's 64-bit bus to adjust my virtual instrument volume, not a lousy 127 values of CC data.

Sending to another track is not a good workaround, especially if you have specific fx chains for certain instruments. I already have a thousand tracks in my template. I can't afford to double the amount of tracks just because Reaper doesn't have pre/post fader slots.

And inserting a gain plugin adds two plugins to every single track if I want to still use CC7. One plugin pre-Kontakt/VSTi to filter CC7 going to the VSTi and/or changing the MIDI bus to skip over the VSTi and another plugin post-VSTi to receive CC7 to adjust volume and/or change the MIDI bus back to 1. So, I would be adding 2000 plugins to my template all because Reaper doesn't have pre-post slots.

Yes, you can workaround most anything in Reaper. However, when the workaround becomes this onerous and the feature request can simplify it so easily, it merits serious consideration. I believe this one does.

Last edited by Klangfarben; 12-21-2018 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:45 PM   #6
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You can't use track-level CC7 for the track fader without at least one extra plugin anyway, and it still needs to skip the VSTi. You can MIDI Learn OR MIDI Link any gain/volume/output parameter on any plug in the chain OR the input parameter of your clipper. It probably doesn't need a dedicated gain plug.
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Old 12-21-2018, 08:29 PM   #7
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I'm still taking 1000 plugins over 2000. And like I said, I get the workarounds. I've tried and used many. But pre-post fader inserts is much more elegant and is a cleaner alternative which is why it has been requested multiple times and also why multiple DAWS have adopted it.
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Old 12-21-2018, 09:42 PM   #8
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I guess I'm not actually trying to argue against the feature. It makes plenty of sense to me. I'm not sure I'd ever use it, or at least I'm not missing it now. As long as it's not implemented in such a way as to interfere with MY workflow, it's kinda no skin off my nose. As far as I'm concerned, you can have it.


It's not clear to me why you need any extra plugins aside from the clipper you want to add, but I don't know much about what you're doing, and given that the mere idea of 1000 tracks just freaks me out, I'm not sure I want to know either. But that's a joke of course, if you want to describe a typical chain, I'd be happy to help you figure out how to make it work.

I do take a little (not much) exception to the term "workaround". In my mind, it's more like "how it works in Reaper".
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Old 05-05-2019, 06:02 PM   #9
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Would love to see this. Saw someone working with AirWindows and thought it was pretty impressive. Would love to take it for a spin!
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alxgvr View Post
Rising fader will not only increase volume, but also harmonic content of the track, adding depth and presence....
You can use an additional track for this. Maybe that track even can be hidden.

-Michael
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
You can use an additional track for this. Maybe that track even can be hidden.

-Michael
Exactly. This is how I sidechain a bunch of different sources for one track.
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Old 05-07-2019, 05:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
You can use an additional track for this. Maybe that track even can be hidden.

-Michael
Very uncomfortable solution. I'd like to do headphone 3D mixes using reaper but therefor I need a HRTF panner that has to be postfader (and post post fader fx send) so the source is binaural but the send is still normal stereo. I dont want to add a separat track for every track I got. So I dont use Reaper for that. Too bad.

Last edited by Gass n Klang; 05-08-2019 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 05-07-2019, 06:46 AM   #13
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+1 - Would be a great add.
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Old 05-08-2019, 02:01 AM   #14
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I suppose that it's only really helpful in a rather limited count of usage cased, some of which were stated here.

OTOH, I do agree that (e.g.) providing a flexible internal positioning / routing of the fader within the FX chain of a track would be perfectly in line with the versatility Reaper usually provides. E.g. similar to -> https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...44&postcount=1 (Thanks DarkStar). A simple "Fader" pseudo-plugin in the FX-Chain list would suffice as the GUI for this.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 05-08-2019 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 05-08-2019, 04:35 AM   #15
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Related:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=181450
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=167336
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:28 PM   #16
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+1 I believe yesterday's ground-breaking release of Console6 will have some other analog emu fans chomping at the bit for this.
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Old 05-30-2019, 06:28 PM   #17
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+1000
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Old 05-31-2019, 03:21 PM   #18
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+1 both hands.
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Old 06-06-2019, 02:05 AM   #19
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+1 we need this so much!!!
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Old 12-16-2019, 06:04 AM   #20
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I need this to .... very useful
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Old 12-17-2019, 02:09 PM   #21
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+1 for the FR
-1 for the doublet
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Old 12-17-2019, 02:54 PM   #22
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Yes. It should have it's own separate 'handles' like the FX parameters section of the mixer. This is even more useful now that we can embed plugin GUI's. We can have a row of EQ's or compressors showing on the mixer, all lined up horizontally so we can easily identify problems. It would also be nice if we could toggle this section to be either post fader or just post all other FX and pre fader.

It's frustrating when a certain plugin needs to stay at the end of the chain, and every time you add a new one you need to re-position the one you want to be last.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:26 PM   #23
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The way Harrison mixbus deals with this is so great! The fader is an insert plugin on the inserts slot , you just need to swap them around to make it pre or post fader!
I believe that won't be easy to implement just like that in Reaper, but can be an idea to make it so.
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:39 PM   #24
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"Fader as an insert effect" has been requested / discussed in another thread. IMHO this is the most "Reaperish" (versatile) way to handle the issue:
if the "Fader" insert effect is loaded in a track, the fader is at that position in the FX chain, if it's not loaded the fader is at the end.

But there supposedly are quite a lot of design considerations on how exactly handle multiple channels and track-internal "pin" routing, and how exactly handle inter-track routing.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 12-18-2019 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 12-18-2019, 04:04 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
"Fader as an insert effect" has been requested / discussed in another thread. IMHO this is the most "Reaperish" (versatile) way way to handle the issue:
if the "Fader" insert effect is loaded in a track, the fader is at that position in the FX chain, if it's not loaded the fader is at the end.

But there supposedly are quite a lot of design considerations on how exactly handle multiple channels and track-internal "pin" routing, and how exactly handle inter-track routing.

-Michael
Indeed. Maybe not an easy implementation i guess.
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Old 03-05-2020, 07:10 AM   #26
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PLEASE give us post-fader FX. I'm desperate for it and just started another thread inquiring about the status of this request...
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Old 05-09-2020, 08:37 AM   #27
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+1000 Please add a post fader FX feature.
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:23 AM   #28
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+1 for me as well.
Tis helps a lot with several Ambisonic plugins like: Spat Revoluzion or New Technology Audio's ones etc etc ... otherwise the levels will be totally assigned to another mixer and it is quite messing.

Now I'm constrained to assign a channel to a folder: so 2 tracks to get 1 ... in order to be able to work with.

At the end, to select a checkbox that switches from pre-fader to post-fader will be great.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:20 PM   #29
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I'm for the "Fader as an insert effect" solution.

In fact, I'd like to see this taken a step further: totally configurable TCP where you can place controls of your choice and link them to any fx parameter. (Is this already possible with WALTER?) So all track-to-parent audio flow would be unity gain by definition but you'd be able to insert any number of volume (gain) plugins and control them with any TCP fader or knob. There could be an option to hide or lock (grey out?) "system" plugins (volume, pan, width). And send sources could be positioned between plugins, too.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:29 PM   #30
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(From an old post)
In MixBus:



What a simple way to have FX pre/post fader. Just drag the "fader" module up /down the FX slots.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:27 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
In MixBus:



What a simple way to have FX pre/post fader. Just drag the "fader" module up /down the FX slots.
Yeah this is just extremely elegant.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:48 PM   #32
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I don't understand all of the use cases described in this thread, but it sounds like a few of them at least could also be solved by having input and output gain controls in the FX window of every insert in Reaper, which is asked for in another FR. No reason we couldn't have both though, assuming its even possible to develop this.
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Old 05-31-2020, 01:06 PM   #33
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+1 on this.
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Old 06-03-2020, 06:17 AM   #34
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+1 from me. Just moving over from Cubase and use this facility all the time! :-)
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Old 06-03-2020, 08:48 AM   #35
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and the way its done in cubase looks simple!
Dedicated inserts for that on the bottom row. Easy.
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:02 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
and the way its done in cubase looks simple!
Dedicated inserts for that on the bottom row. Easy.
Yep. It does work well. I was working with another composer on Logic for a few months and the whole "no post fader inserts on the master" thing really threw me out at first! He used to turn the master up to +6 all the time and I couldn't work out why the limiter wasn't catching the peaks :-) Just assumed that all DAWs had the last two slots as post......
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:25 AM   #37
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Honestly I have trouble enough sizing each of the pieces of the MCP between inserts, sends, and track controls. I’m not sure I need another of those fiddly little bars to deal with.
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Old 06-03-2020, 02:33 PM   #38
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As it is only used in rare cases, this should be purely optional and not clutter the GUI in any way. Hence a "slider" plugin seems like the optimum way.
-Michael
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Old 06-03-2020, 03:45 PM   #39
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Haven't read through the whole thread but I think it is a good idea!
In my opinion the cleanest way to implement this is to add another section in the mixer which sits between Insert FX and Sends and you can enable or disable 'show when size permits'. And if you enable it you can drag that section to have as many slots as you need.
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Old 06-04-2020, 01:33 AM   #40
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So in Cubase, the post fader slots are not visible until you click on an insert plugin and select "send to post fader slot". So it keeps the inserts uncluttered if you don't want that feature.....
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