ARA-Tempo / artifical benchmark

multibody · 02-23-2019, 08:33 AM

Hi,
I still don't get the tempo ara- integration in reaper to do the same that melodyne does internally. I made a little benchmark audio file to demonstrate it. It is a simple loop of piano-melody and drums that increases in speed from 110 bpm to 150 bpm:

I rendered the Audio. When it is analyzed by melodyne the tempo has some oszillation at the transition. But nevertheless the melodyne-internal metronome never looses the beat throughout the whole file when turned on:

I would like to achieve two things in Reaper:
Case1: Import the tempo map and let the benchmark audio unchanged
- Project setting Timebase for items: Beats(position only)
- Import of tempomap through Reaper ARA-menu
Case2: Define the tempo in reaper and let melodyne stretch the audio
- Project setting Timebase for items: Beats(position, length, rate)
- Confirm detected file tempo in Melodyne -> changes reaper item play rate

Unfortunately in both cases the reaper metronome looses the beat of the audio. Maybe I am doing something wrong. The audio file and the reaper Projects for both cases can be downloaded here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ce...fQYTyvNALOttzn

I really want this to work - maybe someone has some suggestions how to improve the results.

schwa · 02-23-2019, 08:55 AM

Can you also post an RPP that has the original REAPER tempo envelope? Case 2 does not seem to have that.

multibody · 02-23-2019, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

Can you also post an RPP that has the original REAPER tempo envelope? Case 2 does not seem to have that.

Sure, here is the inital project for the audio creation:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VD...6KveoTXOXDjegy

From my understanding in Case 2 the tempo map should not be in the Reaper project. In this case only melodyne knows the file tempo and stretches it to match the reaper tempo. Thats also consistent with the melodyne instructions here (Tempo-section):
http://helpcenter.celemony.com/daw/reaper

Quote:

Next select one of the following options:

“Confirm xxx BPM as File Tempo”: This tells Reaper to accept the tempo detected by Melodyne. This triggers Melodyne’s time-stretching and the tempo of the audio file is adjusted to match that of the song (slowing, in our example, from 117 to 83 BPM). Typical application: You are using an audio file (the tempo of which you do not know) and simply wish it to match that of the song

schwa · 02-23-2019, 10:34 AM

I've asked Celemony for help understanding this issue. As far as I can tell, REAPER is importing the tempo map properly, but I agree that playback does not sync up the way it should. There may be some miscommunication between REAPER and Melodyne after the tempo map is imported.

[edit] ah, I've got it. REAPER is not properly accounting for the fact that Melodyne thinks the first downbeat is not at the start of the audio clip. This should be fixed in the latest development build, which was just posted.

schwa · 02-24-2019, 06:41 AM

multibody, if you come back to this thread, it would be great if you could verify that v5.97+dev0223a works as expected?

Information about prerelease builds is here:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=22836

mschnell · 02-24-2019, 07:20 AM

Great this issue is investigated !!!

I might be willing to buy Melodyne just for creating Reaper tempo maps for live recorded media.

-Michael

Gribble · 02-24-2019, 10:50 AM

Hi Schwa,

I've been trying to get it to work too. I think the dev version solves the offset problem, but the issue I'm getting is that my audio is being altered in spite of me giving no instructions to that effect - I am choosing 'Apply tempo to file' and making sure the tempo map is ok, then importing the tempo straight into reaper.

The results vary. Usually the results are much worse than what I just heard inside Melodyne, and the audio itself has been stretched around in ways I didn't request. Timebase is set to Beats (Position only) and I have also tried with Beats (Position, Length, Rate).

A strange thing is that as well as the timing of the original audio file changing, the tempos are different too. In my latest example Melodyne correctly identified a drop in tempo that bottomed out at 57bmp, but when I import into Reaper the lowest tempo came out at 45.

multibody · 02-24-2019, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

multibody, if you come back to this thread, it would be great if you could verify that v5.97+dev0223a works as expected?

Information about prerelease builds is here:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=22836

I did not have much time to check, but my quick conclusion is that case1 now works as expected. Thank you very much for the quick fix. Case2 still does not work correctly.

In my case2-project I tried to make Melodyne play the clip with constant 120 bpm. Melodyne is perfectly capable of doing this. I attached a melodyne-standalone project that plays the clip with constant 120 bpm and the click stays on the beat. This should also be possible with meldyne in reaper and the reaper metronome. Videos on youtube show how this works in Studio one: https://youtu.be/ix1FKDtfiUs?t=335

Another thing: You mentioned you use the offset between the beginning of the clip and the first melodyne-detected downbeat. As I asked in another thread, it would be really nice to get this value for positioning the clip and the tempomap correctly on the Reaper grid. Would it be possible to provide this value e.g. via api? Then a little script "positon tempomap and ara-clip on next downbeat of reaper grid" would be possible.

schwa · 02-24-2019, 10:54 AM

Gribble: If you are planning to import the tempo map into REAPER, you need to have the track or project timebase set to time. If it's set to beats, then accepting the tempo modifications in the plugin will cause the media item to stretch in REAPER. That situation is similar to importing REX or ACID media into a project; the media has some tempo and the project has some tempo, so the media has to get stretched to make them match up. If the REAPER timebase it set to time, that means the existing project tempo will be ignored, so the media won't be stretched, and you can then import the detected tempo from the plugin.

schwa · 02-24-2019, 11:03 AM

multibody: I believe case 2 will work if you set the project tempo to 120 bpm, set the track or project timebase to beats, then confirm the file tempo in Melodyne. The media item in REAPER will then be stretched to account for the difference between the project tempo and the mean detected tempo, and the playback should follow the project tempo. (You should be able to make playback follow any arbitrary tempo changes in REAPER using this method.)

Gribble · 02-24-2019, 12:13 PM

Thank you very much schwa, and sorry for the inadvertent distraction. That is working really well now.. absolutely over the moon that this functionality has come to Reaper.

multibody · 02-24-2019, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

multibody: I believe case 2 will work if you set the project tempo to 120 bpm, set the track or project timebase to beats, then confirm the file tempo in Melodyne. The media item in REAPER will then be stretched to account for the difference between the project tempo and the mean detected tempo, and the playback should follow the project tempo. (You should be able to make playback follow any arbitrary tempo changes in REAPER using this method.)

I have the same understanding that it should work this way. Unfortunately I do not achieve the result when trying it out with my benchmark-clip. The reaper click is completely off. The result should be like in the melodyne-standalone project I posted, where the melodyne click is in sync with the clip at constant 120bpm.

Could you please try this yourself. Possibly I am doing something wrong. Then it would be very helpful if you provide a .rpp that works with my clip correctly.

schwa · 02-24-2019, 12:42 PM

https://stash.reaper.fm/35469/match-...-to-reaper.zip (does not include media, use artificial_benchmark.wav from your original project)

multibody · 02-24-2019, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

https://stash.reaper.fm/35469/match-...-to-reaper.zip (does not include media, use artificial_benchmark.wav from your original project)

Thanks, thats indeed the result I would expect! Unfortunately on my computer the "Confirm Tempo" Option in Melodyne leads to a wrong playback rate in the reaper item.

I get "0.893399" (see attached project). When I change the value to the value from your project "0.897722" the playback in my project is also correct.

Do you have an idea what could cause this wrong rate?

schwa · 02-24-2019, 01:51 PM

Yes, this is a bug on our side, when the media does not start at the start of the project. Fixing!

schwa · 02-24-2019, 02:16 PM

Can you see if this is working as expected in 5.97+dev0224a?

multibody · 02-24-2019, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

Can you see if this is working as expected in 5.97+dev0224a?

I threw some loops together, applied Melodyne and confirmed tempo. Everything matched in tempo immediately - thats really audio wonderland (as someone else already mentioned).

Thanks a lot for the quick fixes!

I did some further testing with variable speed of the reaper project that had some problems - but its late now in Germany. I will provide some examples the next days.

multibody · 02-25-2019, 02:04 PM

As promised I made some more tests with variable tempo for case 2 (match media tempo to reaper).

It looks like reaper/melodyne work correctly in case of a square-only tempomap. When linear parts are used the reaper metronome looses the beat.

I think I also know the reason. I think reaper does not report the tempo in case of linear tempo changes properly to melodyne.

The tempo-field within melodyne keeps the tempo value of the beginning of the linear section until the section ends.

Here are two example-projects:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qs...FZ5ocRfceLf3Vb

schwa · 02-25-2019, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by multibody

I think I also know the reason. I think reaper does not report the tempo in case of linear tempo changes properly to melodyne.

This should be fixed in the latest development build!

multibody · 02-26-2019, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

This should be fixed in the latest development build!

Works fine now, thanks!

Alistair S · 03-05-2019, 10:27 AM

Thanks for working the kinks out on this one out guys! Could I just check my understanding for a particular use case?

Using ARA, if I want to record some audio and then use the tempo of that audio to drive the project, how do I do that?

Let's say I am doing a simple acoustic song and have recorded the main guitar track but would like to add midi drums, following my guitar (tempo changes and all) ...

This is what I *think* I need to do ...

1. I record the guitar track

2. I set the project timebase to Time (or do I need to set each audio track to "Time" and leave the Project timebase as "Beats"?)

3. I add Melodyne as the first FX on the guitar track

4. I import the Melodyne tempo map to the project (this where I get confused - what happens if I "Confirm tempo" first?). My audio is unaffected, just as I like it

5. I set up a new track and load my drums VSTi, which will follow the tempo map (because midi always uses "Beats" as the timebase?)

Should that work? Understanding the different outcomes based on the tempo menu options in Melodyne and the way in which the timebase affects audio differently for each option selected has me a bit confused (and I read the Melodyne help page for Reaper but I'm still a bit unsure).

If I'm good so far, what happens if I then add a time sig change in my project (let's say it's for the bridge) - will that be picked up by ARA or do I need to edit it in Melodyne and re-import the Melodyne tempo map?

It's all a GREAT problem to have but it's going to take me a while to get my head around it!

multibody · 03-05-2019, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alistair S

Thanks for working the kinks out on this one out guys! Could I just check my understanding for a particular use case?

Using ARA, if I want to record some audio and then use the tempo of that audio to drive the project, how do I do that?

Let's say I am doing a simple acoustic song and have recorded the main guitar track but would like to add midi drums, following my guitar (tempo changes and all) ...

This is what I *think* I need to do ...

1. I record the guitar track

2. I set the project timebase to Time (or do I need to set each audio track to "Time" and leave the Project timebase as "Beats"?).

3. I add Melodyne as the first FX on the guitar track

4. I import the Melodyne tempo map to the project (this where I get confused - what happens if I "Confirm tempo" first?). My audio is unaffected, just as I like it

5. I set up a new track and load my drums VSTi, which will follow the tempo map (because midi always uses "Beats" as the timebase?)

Should that work? Understanding the different outcomes based on the tempo menu options in Melodyne and the way in which the timebase affects audio differently for each option selected has me a bit confused (and I read the Melodyne help page for Reaper but I'm still a bit unsure).

If I'm good so far, what happens if I then add a time sig change in my project (let's say it's for the bridge) - will that be picked up by ARA or do I need to edit it in Melodyne and re-import the Melodyne tempo map?

It's all a GREAT problem to have but it's going to take me a while to get my head around it!

Hi, I will answer by your numbers:

2. I always used project settings. Both settings "Time" and "Beats (positions only)" will work for the case that you import the tempomap into Reaper. I did not use different track-settings.

4. The "confirm tempo" option is only for the case, when you want melodyne to stretch the audio to match the project tempo. This has to be combined with the project setting "Beats (position, length,rate). When you want to import the tempomap into Reaper no action within Melodyne is necessary. You can import tempo, grid-position and time sigs by opening the little +Menu in the Reaper FX-Track window above the plugin.

5. Everything should work fine with the project settings I mentioned.

Concerning the time sig change:
- The tempomap is derived by Melodyne from the audio-file directly. Therefore the Melodyne-tempo-editor will not reflect the project changes.
- The regular Melodyne Note-Editor is linked to the Reaper Project. Therefore the time sig changes will be reflected here.

Hope that helps.

Alistair S · 03-05-2019, 02:39 PM

Helps enormously - and sounds perfect! Thanks!

schwa · 03-05-2019, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by multibody

2. I always used project settings. Both settings "Time" and "Beats (positions only)" will work for the case that you import the tempomap into Reaper. I did not use different track-settings.

4. The "confirm tempo" option is only for the case, when you want melodyne to stretch the audio to match the project tempo. This has to be combined with the project setting "Beats (position, length,rate). When you want to import the tempomap into Reaper no action within Melodyne is necessary. You can import tempo, grid-position and time sigs by opening the little +Menu in the Reaper FX-Track window above the plugin.

This is all well explained. To clarify, the timebase can be set (or overridden) at the project, track, and media item level. So you can control whether individual tracks and media items stretch in step 4.

Alistair S · 03-05-2019, 02:48 PM

Better still - thanks Schwa

It looks very powerful and will take a bit of re-learning, but it's a huge step and worth it!

MusoBob · 06-26-2019, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mschnell

Great this issue is investigated !!!

I might be willing to buy Melodyne just for creating Reaper tempo maps for live recorded media.

-Michael

Did you try https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=221486

mschnell · 06-26-2019, 09:39 PM

not yet, but I definitively will

(once my computer is working again

).
-Michael

MusoBob · 06-26-2019, 11:49 PM

Then you can then fit your constant tempo Biab tracks to it
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=217443#4
or set it to a constant tempo
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2151391#9

mabian · 08-31-2020, 04:24 PM

Reviving this thread, I'm having serious issues while trying to import a tempo map from a Melodyne track to REAPER.

The items in "+" menu to import file tempo to REAPER through ARA are greyed out (only "notes" is available).

I have set a tempo map in some items in the track through Melodyne, and I'm now trying to transfer the tempo settings to the REAPER project tempo.

No dice...

Using REAPER 6.13 x64 on Windows 10 with Melodyne VST3 4.2.4.

Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Mario

02-23-2019, 08:33 AM	#1
multibody Human being with feelings Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Germany Posts: 157	ARA-Tempo / artifical benchmark Hi, I still don't get the tempo ara- integration in reaper to do the same that melodyne does internally. I made a little benchmark audio file to demonstrate it. It is a simple loop of piano-melody and drums that increases in speed from 110 bpm to 150 bpm: I rendered the Audio. When it is analyzed by melodyne the tempo has some oszillation at the transition. But nevertheless the melodyne-internal metronome never looses the beat throughout the whole file when turned on: I would like to achieve two things in Reaper: Case1: Import the tempo map and let the benchmark audio unchanged - Project setting Timebase for items: Beats(position only) - Import of tempomap through Reaper ARA-menu Case2: Define the tempo in reaper and let melodyne stretch the audio - Project setting Timebase for items: Beats(position, length, rate) - Confirm detected file tempo in Melodyne -> changes reaper item play rate Unfortunately in both cases the reaper metronome looses the beat of the audio. Maybe I am doing something wrong. The audio file and the reaper Projects for both cases can be downloaded here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ce...fQYTyvNALOttzn I really want this to work - maybe someone has some suggestions how to improve the results.

02-24-2019, 07:20 AM	#6
mschnell Human being with feelings Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Krefeld, Germany Posts: 16,277	Great this issue is investigated !!! I might be willing to buy Melodyne just for creating Reaper tempo maps for live recorded media. -Michael __________________ http://www.boa-sorte.de, http://www.boa-sorte.de/b, http://www.bitvibe.de

06-26-2019, 09:39 PM	#27
mschnell Human being with feelings Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Krefeld, Germany Posts: 16,277	not yet, but I definitively will (once my computer is working again ). -Michael __________________ http://www.boa-sorte.de, http://www.boa-sorte.de/b, http://www.bitvibe.de Last edited by mschnell; 08-31-2020 at 10:37 PM.

06-26-2019, 11:49 PM	#28
MusoBob Human being with feelings Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 2,645	Then you can then fit your constant tempo Biab tracks to it https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=217443#4 or set it to a constant tempo https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2151391#9 __________________ *ReaTrakStudio*** Chord Track for Reaper forum www.reatrak.com STASH Downloads https://stash.reaper.fm/u/ReaTrak

08-31-2020, 04:24 PM	#29
mabian Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 4,377	Reviving this thread, I'm having serious issues while trying to import a tempo map from a Melodyne track to REAPER. The items in "+" menu to import file tempo to REAPER through ARA are greyed out (only "notes" is available). I have set a tempo map in some items in the track through Melodyne, and I'm now trying to transfer the tempo settings to the REAPER project tempo. No dice... Using REAPER 6.13 x64 on Windows 10 with Melodyne VST3 4.2.4. Am I missing something? Thanks, Mario __________________ Music: https://www.reverbnation.com/errepici - https://www.facebook.com/errepici https://www.youtube.com/@errepici - https://soundcloud.com/errepici

02-23-2019, 08:55 AM	#2
schwa Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY Posts: 16,498	Can you also post an RPP that has the original REAPER tempo envelope? Case 2 does not seem to have that.

02-23-2019, 10:34 AM	#4
schwa Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY Posts: 16,498	I've asked Celemony for help understanding this issue. As far as I can tell, REAPER is importing the tempo map properly, but I agree that playback does not sync up the way it should. There may be some miscommunication between REAPER and Melodyne after the tempo map is imported. [edit] ah, I've got it. REAPER is not properly accounting for the fact that Melodyne thinks the first downbeat is not at the start of the audio clip. This should be fixed in the latest development build, which was just posted. Last edited by schwa; 02-23-2019 at 11:57 AM.

02-24-2019, 06:41 AM	#5
schwa Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY Posts: 16,498	multibody, if you come back to this thread, it would be great if you could verify that v5.97+dev0223a works as expected? Information about prerelease builds is here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=22836

02-24-2019, 10:50 AM	#7
Gribble Human being with feelings Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Winchester, UK Posts: 7	Hi Schwa, I've been trying to get it to work too. I think the dev version solves the offset problem, but the issue I'm getting is that my audio is being altered in spite of me giving no instructions to that effect - I am choosing 'Apply tempo to file' and making sure the tempo map is ok, then importing the tempo straight into reaper. The results vary. Usually the results are much worse than what I just heard inside Melodyne, and the audio itself has been stretched around in ways I didn't request. Timebase is set to Beats (Position only) and I have also tried with Beats (Position, Length, Rate). A strange thing is that as well as the timing of the original audio file changing, the tempos are different too. In my latest example Melodyne correctly identified a drop in tempo that bottomed out at 57bmp, but when I import into Reaper the lowest tempo came out at 45.

02-24-2019, 10:54 AM	#9
schwa Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY Posts: 16,498	Gribble: If you are planning to import the tempo map into REAPER, you need to have the track or project timebase set to time. If it's set to beats, then accepting the tempo modifications in the plugin will cause the media item to stretch in REAPER. That situation is similar to importing REX or ACID media into a project; the media has some tempo and the project has some tempo, so the media has to get stretched to make them match up. If the REAPER timebase it set to time, that means the existing project tempo will be ignored, so the media won't be stretched, and you can then import the detected tempo from the plugin.

02-24-2019, 11:03 AM	#10
schwa Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY Posts: 16,498	multibody: I believe case 2 will work if you set the project tempo to 120 bpm, set the track or project timebase to beats, then confirm the file tempo in Melodyne. The media item in REAPER will then be stretched to account for the difference between the project tempo and the mean detected tempo, and the playback should follow the project tempo. (You should be able to make playback follow any arbitrary tempo changes in REAPER using this method.)

02-24-2019, 12:13 PM	#11
Gribble Human being with feelings Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Winchester, UK Posts: 7	Thank you very much schwa, and sorry for the inadvertent distraction. That is working really well now.. absolutely over the moon that this functionality has come to Reaper.

02-24-2019, 12:42 PM	#13
schwa Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY Posts: 16,498	https://stash.reaper.fm/35469/match-...-to-reaper.zip (does not include media, use artificial_benchmark.wav from your original project)

02-24-2019, 01:51 PM	#15
schwa Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY Posts: 16,498	Yes, this is a bug on our side, when the media does not start at the start of the project. Fixing!

02-24-2019, 02:16 PM	#16
schwa Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY Posts: 16,498	Can you see if this is working as expected in 5.97+dev0224a?

02-25-2019, 02:04 PM	#18
multibody Human being with feelings Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Germany Posts: 157	As promised I made some more tests with variable tempo for case 2 (match media tempo to reaper). It looks like reaper/melodyne work correctly in case of a square-only tempomap. When linear parts are used the reaper metronome looses the beat. I think I also know the reason. I think reaper does not report the tempo in case of linear tempo changes properly to melodyne. The tempo-field within melodyne keeps the tempo value of the beginning of the linear section until the section ends. Here are two example-projects: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qs...FZ5ocRfceLf3Vb

03-05-2019, 10:27 AM	#21
Alistair S Human being with feelings Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: UK Posts: 1,720	Thanks for working the kinks out on this one out guys! Could I just check my understanding for a particular use case? Using ARA, if I want to record some audio and then use the tempo of that audio to drive the project, how do I do that? Let's say I am doing a simple acoustic song and have recorded the main guitar track but would like to add midi drums, following my guitar (tempo changes and all) ... This is what I think I need to do ... 1. I record the guitar track 2. I set the project timebase to Time (or do I need to set each audio track to "Time" and leave the Project timebase as "Beats"?) 3. I add Melodyne as the first FX on the guitar track 4. I import the Melodyne tempo map to the project (this where I get confused - what happens if I "Confirm tempo" first?). My audio is unaffected, just as I like it 5. I set up a new track and load my drums VSTi, which will follow the tempo map (because midi always uses "Beats" as the timebase?) Should that work? Understanding the different outcomes based on the tempo menu options in Melodyne and the way in which the timebase affects audio differently for each option selected has me a bit confused (and I read the Melodyne help page for Reaper but I'm still a bit unsure). If I'm good so far, what happens if I then add a time sig change in my project (let's say it's for the bridge) - will that be picked up by ARA or do I need to edit it in Melodyne and re-import the Melodyne tempo map? It's all a GREAT problem to have but it's going to take me a while to get my head around it!

03-05-2019, 02:39 PM	#23
Alistair S Human being with feelings Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: UK Posts: 1,720	Helps enormously - and sounds perfect! Thanks!

03-05-2019, 02:48 PM	#25
Alistair S Human being with feelings Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: UK Posts: 1,720	Better still - thanks Schwa It looks very powerful and will take a bit of re-learning, but it's a huge step and worth it!

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