Old 02-23-2019, 08:33 AM   #1
multibody
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Default ARA-Tempo / artifical benchmark

Hi,
I still don't get the tempo ara- integration in reaper to do the same that melodyne does internally. I made a little benchmark audio file to demonstrate it. It is a simple loop of piano-melody and drums that increases in speed from 110 bpm to 150 bpm:



I rendered the Audio. When it is analyzed by melodyne the tempo has some oszillation at the transition. But nevertheless the melodyne-internal metronome never looses the beat throughout the whole file when turned on:



I would like to achieve two things in Reaper:
Case1: Import the tempo map and let the benchmark audio unchanged
- Project setting Timebase for items: Beats(position only)
- Import of tempomap through Reaper ARA-menu
Case2: Define the tempo in reaper and let melodyne stretch the audio
- Project setting Timebase for items: Beats(position, length, rate)
- Confirm detected file tempo in Melodyne -> changes reaper item play rate

Unfortunately in both cases the reaper metronome looses the beat of the audio. Maybe I am doing something wrong. The audio file and the reaper Projects for both cases can be downloaded here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ce...fQYTyvNALOttzn

I really want this to work - maybe someone has some suggestions how to improve the results.
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:55 AM   #2
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Can you also post an RPP that has the original REAPER tempo envelope? Case 2 does not seem to have that.
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Old 02-23-2019, 09:19 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Can you also post an RPP that has the original REAPER tempo envelope? Case 2 does not seem to have that.
Sure, here is the inital project for the audio creation:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VD...6KveoTXOXDjegy

From my understanding in Case 2 the tempo map should not be in the Reaper project. In this case only melodyne knows the file tempo and stretches it to match the reaper tempo. Thats also consistent with the melodyne instructions here (Tempo-section):
http://helpcenter.celemony.com/daw/reaper

Quote:
Next select one of the following options:

“Confirm xxx BPM as File Tempo”: This tells Reaper to accept the tempo detected by Melodyne. This triggers Melodyne’s time-stretching and the tempo of the audio file is adjusted to match that of the song (slowing, in our example, from 117 to 83 BPM). Typical application: You are using an audio file (the tempo of which you do not know) and simply wish it to match that of the song
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:34 AM   #4
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I've asked Celemony for help understanding this issue. As far as I can tell, REAPER is importing the tempo map properly, but I agree that playback does not sync up the way it should. There may be some miscommunication between REAPER and Melodyne after the tempo map is imported.

[edit] ah, I've got it. REAPER is not properly accounting for the fact that Melodyne thinks the first downbeat is not at the start of the audio clip. This should be fixed in the latest development build, which was just posted.

Last edited by schwa; 02-23-2019 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:41 AM   #5
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multibody, if you come back to this thread, it would be great if you could verify that v5.97+dev0223a works as expected?

Information about prerelease builds is here:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=22836
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Old 02-24-2019, 07:20 AM   #6
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Great this issue is investigated !!!

I might be willing to buy Melodyne just for creating Reaper tempo maps for live recorded media.

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Old 02-24-2019, 10:50 AM   #7
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Hi Schwa,

I've been trying to get it to work too. I think the dev version solves the offset problem, but the issue I'm getting is that my audio is being altered in spite of me giving no instructions to that effect - I am choosing 'Apply tempo to file' and making sure the tempo map is ok, then importing the tempo straight into reaper.

The results vary. Usually the results are much worse than what I just heard inside Melodyne, and the audio itself has been stretched around in ways I didn't request. Timebase is set to Beats (Position only) and I have also tried with Beats (Position, Length, Rate).

A strange thing is that as well as the timing of the original audio file changing, the tempos are different too. In my latest example Melodyne correctly identified a drop in tempo that bottomed out at 57bmp, but when I import into Reaper the lowest tempo came out at 45.
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
multibody, if you come back to this thread, it would be great if you could verify that v5.97+dev0223a works as expected?

Information about prerelease builds is here:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=22836
I did not have much time to check, but my quick conclusion is that case1 now works as expected. Thank you very much for the quick fix. Case2 still does not work correctly.

In my case2-project I tried to make Melodyne play the clip with constant 120 bpm. Melodyne is perfectly capable of doing this. I attached a melodyne-standalone project that plays the clip with constant 120 bpm and the click stays on the beat. This should also be possible with meldyne in reaper and the reaper metronome. Videos on youtube show how this works in Studio one: https://youtu.be/ix1FKDtfiUs?t=335

Another thing: You mentioned you use the offset between the beginning of the clip and the first melodyne-detected downbeat. As I asked in another thread, it would be really nice to get this value for positioning the clip and the tempomap correctly on the Reaper grid. Would it be possible to provide this value e.g. via api? Then a little script "positon tempomap and ara-clip on next downbeat of reaper grid" would be possible.
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File Type: zip benchmark_melodyne_standalone_constant120bpm.zip (657.1 KB, 17 views)
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:54 AM   #9
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Gribble: If you are planning to import the tempo map into REAPER, you need to have the track or project timebase set to time. If it's set to beats, then accepting the tempo modifications in the plugin will cause the media item to stretch in REAPER. That situation is similar to importing REX or ACID media into a project; the media has some tempo and the project has some tempo, so the media has to get stretched to make them match up. If the REAPER timebase it set to time, that means the existing project tempo will be ignored, so the media won't be stretched, and you can then import the detected tempo from the plugin.
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Old 02-24-2019, 11:03 AM   #10
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multibody: I believe case 2 will work if you set the project tempo to 120 bpm, set the track or project timebase to beats, then confirm the file tempo in Melodyne. The media item in REAPER will then be stretched to account for the difference between the project tempo and the mean detected tempo, and the playback should follow the project tempo. (You should be able to make playback follow any arbitrary tempo changes in REAPER using this method.)
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:13 PM   #11
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Thank you very much schwa, and sorry for the inadvertent distraction. That is working really well now.. absolutely over the moon that this functionality has come to Reaper.
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
multibody: I believe case 2 will work if you set the project tempo to 120 bpm, set the track or project timebase to beats, then confirm the file tempo in Melodyne. The media item in REAPER will then be stretched to account for the difference between the project tempo and the mean detected tempo, and the playback should follow the project tempo. (You should be able to make playback follow any arbitrary tempo changes in REAPER using this method.)
I have the same understanding that it should work this way. Unfortunately I do not achieve the result when trying it out with my benchmark-clip. The reaper click is completely off. The result should be like in the melodyne-standalone project I posted, where the melodyne click is in sync with the clip at constant 120bpm.

Could you please try this yourself. Possibly I am doing something wrong. Then it would be very helpful if you provide a .rpp that works with my clip correctly.
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:42 PM   #13
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https://stash.reaper.fm/35469/match-...-to-reaper.zip (does not include media, use artificial_benchmark.wav from your original project)
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
https://stash.reaper.fm/35469/match-...-to-reaper.zip (does not include media, use artificial_benchmark.wav from your original project)
Thanks, thats indeed the result I would expect! Unfortunately on my computer the "Confirm Tempo" Option in Melodyne leads to a wrong playback rate in the reaper item.

I get "0.893399" (see attached project). When I change the value to the value from your project "0.897722" the playback in my project is also correct.

Do you have an idea what could cause this wrong rate?
Attached Files
File Type: zip wrong_playback_rate_after_confirm.zip (683.4 KB, 26 views)

Last edited by multibody; 02-24-2019 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:51 PM   #15
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Yes, this is a bug on our side, when the media does not start at the start of the project. Fixing!
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Old 02-24-2019, 02:16 PM   #16
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Can you see if this is working as expected in 5.97+dev0224a?
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Old 02-24-2019, 02:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Can you see if this is working as expected in 5.97+dev0224a?

I threw some loops together, applied Melodyne and confirmed tempo. Everything matched in tempo immediately - thats really audio wonderland (as someone else already mentioned).

Thanks a lot for the quick fixes!



I did some further testing with variable speed of the reaper project that had some problems - but its late now in Germany. I will provide some examples the next days.
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Old 02-25-2019, 02:04 PM   #18
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As promised I made some more tests with variable tempo for case 2 (match media tempo to reaper).

It looks like reaper/melodyne work correctly in case of a square-only tempomap. When linear parts are used the reaper metronome looses the beat.

I think I also know the reason. I think reaper does not report the tempo in case of linear tempo changes properly to melodyne.

The tempo-field within melodyne keeps the tempo value of the beginning of the linear section until the section ends.

Here are two example-projects:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qs...FZ5ocRfceLf3Vb
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Old 02-25-2019, 06:43 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multibody View Post
I think I also know the reason. I think reaper does not report the tempo in case of linear tempo changes properly to melodyne.
This should be fixed in the latest development build!
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
This should be fixed in the latest development build!
Works fine now, thanks!
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Old 03-05-2019, 10:27 AM   #21
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Thanks for working the kinks out on this one out guys! Could I just check my understanding for a particular use case?

Using ARA, if I want to record some audio and then use the tempo of that audio to drive the project, how do I do that?

Let's say I am doing a simple acoustic song and have recorded the main guitar track but would like to add midi drums, following my guitar (tempo changes and all) ...

This is what I *think* I need to do ...

1. I record the guitar track

2. I set the project timebase to Time (or do I need to set each audio track to "Time" and leave the Project timebase as "Beats"?)

3. I add Melodyne as the first FX on the guitar track

4. I import the Melodyne tempo map to the project (this where I get confused - what happens if I "Confirm tempo" first?). My audio is unaffected, just as I like it

5. I set up a new track and load my drums VSTi, which will follow the tempo map (because midi always uses "Beats" as the timebase?)

Should that work? Understanding the different outcomes based on the tempo menu options in Melodyne and the way in which the timebase affects audio differently for each option selected has me a bit confused (and I read the Melodyne help page for Reaper but I'm still a bit unsure).

If I'm good so far, what happens if I then add a time sig change in my project (let's say it's for the bridge) - will that be picked up by ARA or do I need to edit it in Melodyne and re-import the Melodyne tempo map?

It's all a GREAT problem to have but it's going to take me a while to get my head around it!
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Old 03-05-2019, 02:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistair S View Post
Thanks for working the kinks out on this one out guys! Could I just check my understanding for a particular use case?

Using ARA, if I want to record some audio and then use the tempo of that audio to drive the project, how do I do that?

Let's say I am doing a simple acoustic song and have recorded the main guitar track but would like to add midi drums, following my guitar (tempo changes and all) ...

This is what I *think* I need to do ...

1. I record the guitar track

2. I set the project timebase to Time (or do I need to set each audio track to "Time" and leave the Project timebase as "Beats"?).

3. I add Melodyne as the first FX on the guitar track

4. I import the Melodyne tempo map to the project (this where I get confused - what happens if I "Confirm tempo" first?). My audio is unaffected, just as I like it

5. I set up a new track and load my drums VSTi, which will follow the tempo map (because midi always uses "Beats" as the timebase?)

Should that work? Understanding the different outcomes based on the tempo menu options in Melodyne and the way in which the timebase affects audio differently for each option selected has me a bit confused (and I read the Melodyne help page for Reaper but I'm still a bit unsure).

If I'm good so far, what happens if I then add a time sig change in my project (let's say it's for the bridge) - will that be picked up by ARA or do I need to edit it in Melodyne and re-import the Melodyne tempo map?

It's all a GREAT problem to have but it's going to take me a while to get my head around it!
Hi, I will answer by your numbers:

2. I always used project settings. Both settings "Time" and "Beats (positions only)" will work for the case that you import the tempomap into Reaper. I did not use different track-settings.

4. The "confirm tempo" option is only for the case, when you want melodyne to stretch the audio to match the project tempo. This has to be combined with the project setting "Beats (position, length,rate). When you want to import the tempomap into Reaper no action within Melodyne is necessary. You can import tempo, grid-position and time sigs by opening the little +Menu in the Reaper FX-Track window above the plugin.

5. Everything should work fine with the project settings I mentioned.

Concerning the time sig change:
- The tempomap is derived by Melodyne from the audio-file directly. Therefore the Melodyne-tempo-editor will not reflect the project changes.
- The regular Melodyne Note-Editor is linked to the Reaper Project. Therefore the time sig changes will be reflected here.

Hope that helps.

Last edited by multibody; 03-05-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 03-05-2019, 02:39 PM   #23
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Helps enormously - and sounds perfect! Thanks!
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Old 03-05-2019, 02:40 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multibody View Post
2. I always used project settings. Both settings "Time" and "Beats (positions only)" will work for the case that you import the tempomap into Reaper. I did not use different track-settings.

4. The "confirm tempo" option is only for the case, when you want melodyne to stretch the audio to match the project tempo. This has to be combined with the project setting "Beats (position, length,rate). When you want to import the tempomap into Reaper no action within Melodyne is necessary. You can import tempo, grid-position and time sigs by opening the little +Menu in the Reaper FX-Track window above the plugin.
This is all well explained. To clarify, the timebase can be set (or overridden) at the project, track, and media item level. So you can control whether individual tracks and media items stretch in step 4.
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Old 03-05-2019, 02:48 PM   #25
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Better still - thanks Schwa

It looks very powerful and will take a bit of re-learning, but it's a huge step and worth it!
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