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Old 06-05-2019, 07:26 PM   #1
Breeder
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Default Having 500+ offline FX seems to slow down project idle CPU

In short, the difference is staggering 6% and fx with 500+ instances is kontakt - a fairly common scenario.

I disabled anticipative processing completely, made sure no tracks were record armed, I closed all windows accept arrange (thinking maybe mixer drawing takes cpu or something) etc... But I couldn't lower idle CPU to normal 0.4% at idle when all those tracks stay in project, but offline FX are removed

Anyone has any idea what's up with that? Shouldn't offline FX be completely unloaded? Why CPU usage then? What is happening in the background that is spending that precious CPU?
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:05 AM   #2
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Anyone has any idea what's up with that? Shouldn't offline FX be completely unloaded? Why CPU usage then? What is happening in the background that is spending that precious CPU?
Hi,
I have similar findings, FXses toggle off but CPU still being utilized for some reason... No clue...

Kr
Tomek
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:18 AM   #3
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500 offline FX is fairly common? Ok then...
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:26 AM   #4
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500 offline FX is fairly common? Ok then...
I'd love to see the practical project using 500 OFFLINE FX
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:46 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeder View Post
Shouldn't offline FX be completely unloaded?
There's a Preference: Plug-ins -> VST -> Allow complete unload of VST plugins

I assume it affects (only) RAM usage (that's what it also says in the description), but maybe worth experimenting if it affects CPU usage too for offline FX?
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Old 06-06-2019, 09:09 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
I'd love to see the practical project using 500 OFFLINE FX
Very common practice in film scoring: a huge template with 1000+ tracks, where VSTis are deactivated until you need them.
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Old 06-06-2019, 09:50 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by seymour22 View Post
Hi,
I have similar findings, FXses toggle off but CPU still being utilized for some reason... No clue...

Kr
Tomek
Ah, thank god I'm not the only one then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
There's a Preference: Plug-ins -> VST -> Allow complete unload of VST plugins

I assume it affects (only) RAM usage (that's what it also says in the description), but maybe worth experimenting if it affects CPU usage too for offline FX?
Hmm, might give it a try. But I have a gut feeling some timer in REAPER is doing something it's not supposed to. It's worth mentioning I did turn off any running scripts too but still no success.

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Very common practice in film scoring: a huge template with 1000+ tracks, where VSTis are deactivated until you need them.
Exactly! Thank you!
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:10 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Breeder View Post
Ah, thank god I'm not the only one then.
Hmm, might give it a try. But I have a gut feeling some timer in REAPER is doing something it's not supposed to. It's worth mentioning I did turn off any running scripts too but still no success.
Exactly! Thank you!
You're welcome!

There are some discussions here in the Reaper forums, that tracks will always consume some CPU, regardless of their state (activated or de-activated or with to without FX/VSTis on it), which is a pity.

EDIT:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220757
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:15 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
You're welcome!

There are some discussions here in the Reaper forums, that tracks will always consume some CPU, regardless of their state (activated or de-activated or with to without FX/VSTis on it), which is a pity.

EDIT:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220757
I'll check it out, but let me just mention that CPU is still lower when those same tracks stay in project but without all those kontakt instances.

Might be worth testing scaling of this using 1000, 2000 offline kontakt instances etc... (I think it's safe to say that currently 3000 tracks is as much as makes sense to go. If I'm not mistaken, Junkie XL is using around 2200 tracks?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
There's a Preference: Plug-ins -> VST -> Allow complete unload of VST plugins

I assume it affects (only) RAM usage (that's what it also says in the description), but maybe worth experimenting if it affects CPU usage too for offline FX?
Tried this now, it didn't do the trick for CPU
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:22 AM   #10
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Ah okay, I see. I haven't checked that in a while I must confess.
I think that either the "offline" feature does not really unload the plugin or it creates some overhead.
There's definitely some room for improvement there.

As far as I remember JXL uses even 6000 tracks. But Cubase gets really slow there. Not much fun to use it
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Old 06-06-2019, 12:21 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
As far as I remember JXL uses even 6000 tracks. But Cubase gets really slow there. Not much fun to use it
So he has been busy, haha

Yeah, when I see him using Cubase I sometimes feel sorry. Maybe he'll join us in REAPER la-la land if we get Cockos to look into this problem
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Old 06-06-2019, 12:30 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Breeder View Post
So he has been busy, haha

Yeah, when I see him using Cubase I sometimes feel sorry. Maybe he'll join us in REAPER la-la land if we get Cockos to look into this problem
Reaper definitely has potential to do that!
I hope we get some nice surprises for v6 *crossing fingers*
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:26 PM   #13
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It seems buffer size has something to do with this. If I lower buffer from 256 to 48, idle CPU jump through the roof (from 6% to 38%).

Let me mention again that I do have anticipative processing turned off!
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:29 PM   #14
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If I disable anticipative processing and media buffering for all tracks in the project, CPU drops from 38% to 12 % at buffer size of 48. But it still crackles and RT CPU is over 100%
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:58 PM   #15
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Have you tried also muting the track and bypassing the FX? Even though the FX are offlined, I've noticed these things help CPU usage.

This is the recipe I use. This is in combination with the "Do not process muted tracks" option enabled.

Code:
    if mode == MODE_TOGGLE then
        -- Track: Toggle all FX online/offline for selected tracks
        reaper.Main_OnCommandEx(reaper.NamedCommandLookup('_S&M_FXOFFALL'), 0, 0)
        -- Track: Toggle FX bypass for selected tracks
        reaper.Main_OnCommandEx(8, 0, 0)
        -- Track: Toggle mute for selected tracks
        reaper.Main_OnCommandEx(6, 0, 0)
    elseif mode == MODE_OFF then
        -- Track: Mute tracks
        reaper.Main_OnCommandEx(40730, 0, 0)
        -- SWS/S&M: Bypass all FX for selected tracks
        reaper.Main_OnCommandEx(reaper.NamedCommandLookup('_XENAKIOS_BYPASSFXOFSELTRAX'), 0, 0)
        -- Track: Set all FX offline for selected tracks
        reaper.Main_OnCommandEx(40535, 0, 0)
    elseif mode == MODE_ON then
        -- Track: Set all FX online for selected tracks
        reaper.Main_OnCommandEx(40536, 0, 0)
        -- SWS/S&M: Unbypass all FX for selected tracks
        reaper.Main_OnCommandEx(reaper.NamedCommandLookup('_XENAKIOS_UNBYPASSFXOFSELTRAX'), 0, 0)
        -- Track: Unmute tracks
        reaper.Main_OnCommandEx(40731, 0, 0)
    end
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Old 06-06-2019, 06:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tack View Post
This is the recipe I use. This is in combination with the "Do not process muted tracks" option enabled.
This actually might work as a temporary workaround! When I do mute these tracks, CPU drops substantially. RT CPU is still high from all the track count, but this might we workable - let me test it a bit in practice ;D

Thank you so much!
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Old 06-06-2019, 06:56 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeder View Post
This actually might work as a temporary workaround! When I do mute these tracks, CPU drops substantially. RT CPU is still high from all the track count, but this might we workable - let me test it a bit in practice ;D

Thank you so much!
Glad it helped! Be sure to try the FX bypass as well as muting. At least when I tested this some time ago (a year or two) it helped CPU.
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Old 06-06-2019, 06:57 PM   #18
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Glad it helped! Be sure to try the FX bypass as well as muting. At least when I tested this some time ago (a year or two) it helped CPU.
Will do.

P.S.
All that muting makes arrange looks so dark! But I wouldn't like to change the theme just to fix that. Oh well...at least music can flow again!
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Old 06-06-2019, 07:00 PM   #19
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All that muting makes arrange looks so dark! But I wouldn't like to change the theme just to fix that. Oh well...at least music can flow again!
I actually lock track controls as well because with my theme muting alone doesn't darken the track. I prefer for my disabled tracks to be dark.
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Old 06-06-2019, 07:09 PM   #20
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I actually lock track controls as well because with my theme muting alone doesn't darken the track. I prefer for my disabled tracks to be dark.
Makes sense, you know instantly what is active in the project. But I'm a sucker for uniformity in GUI

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Be sure to try the FX bypass as well as muting. At least when I tested this some time ago (a year or two) it helped CPU.
This makes a minuscule difference.

With FX disabled and offlined CPU hovers around 1 and 1.8% while RT CPU stays at 6.8 to 6.9%
With FX enabled but offlined CPU hovers around 0.8 and 2% (but more erratic) while RT CPU stays at 6.9% to 7.0%

Wonder what it's about that it even makes a difference.
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Old 06-06-2019, 11:49 PM   #21
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Yeah, it's not an ideal solution and involves a lot of fiddling.
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:06 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeder View Post
It seems buffer size has something to do with this. If I lower buffer from 256 to 48, idle CPU jump through the roof (from 6% to 38%).
Of course, lower buffer sizes are a much larger strain on the CPU, especially the realtime audio thread.


IMHO, running a large track count at buffers lower than 128 is insanity, but who am I to judge.
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:09 AM   #23
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I really wish that REAPER gets better in regards to bigger track counts. Not only the high CPU usage is a huge problem, the UI also gets extremely slow and sluggish with only around 100-200 tracks on my 4k screen.
It's by far the biggest problem I have with REAPER and I hope it will get addressed some day.
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:15 AM   #24
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I really wish that REAPER gets better in regards to bigger track counts. Not only the high CPU usage is a huge problem, the UI also gets extremely slow and sluggish with only around 100-200 tracks on my 4k screen.
It's by far the biggest problem I have with REAPER and I hope it will get addressed some day.
Word!
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:47 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Of course, lower buffer sizes are a much larger strain on the CPU, especially the realtime audio thread.
That would be fine if something actually run in the audio thread. Trouble is, nothing is running and CPU is through the roof.
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:10 AM   #26
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Did this happen in REAPER 4? I don't find old installers to test. Maybe worth a try.
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:23 AM   #27
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https://www.reaper.fm/download-old.php?ver=4x
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:46 AM   #28
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ah... thanks EvilDragon.
just tested 4.78... and CPU usage is 3 times worse (just empty 1000 tracks)
so things are better now
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:52 AM   #29
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ah... thanks EvilDragon.
just tested 4.78... and CPU usage is 3 times worse (just empty 1000 tracks)
so things are better now
Good to see these things are getting an ongoing attention - I'm sure there's room for even more improvement.
These are just empty tracks (no FX, no items, only MIDI input...it's almost as if they don't exist), there has got to be a way to code this somehow so it doesn't waste CPU

I'm starting to miss my old 16-track template, but man...once you setup this big template there's really no going back - much more musical to work with. No loading, no messing around. Simply playing things in. And if you don't like how they sound together, no matter...you have your whole sound palette ready to rock 'n' roll.

Last edited by Breeder; 06-07-2019 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:57 AM   #30
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https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...99&postcount=5
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Old 06-07-2019, 05:01 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
If I have 1 track and 1 instrument at 48spls I get like 2% CPU or less. No crackles, no nothing.

Same scenario, but this time 500 empty tracks around that one track with VSTi - suddenly everything crackles, RT CPU jumps to around 40% and it's impossible to play.

Something can't be right here no matter the philosophy of idling at higher CPU than most DAWs.
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Old 06-07-2019, 06:38 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I wish we just had a 'true' and native track deactivation feature in REAPER (not the culmination of actions that we use right now), which would turn off this constant monitoring of idle tracks until they are activated again.
That alone would already make me very happy and seems like the easiest solution to the problem.
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:08 AM   #33
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You cannot claim it's the easiest solution of the problem without knowing how the audio engine in Reaper is structured code-wise...
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:22 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
You cannot claim it's the easiest solution of the problem without knowing how the audio engine in Reaper is structured code-wise...
At the very least it would formalize a process that many people want to do, but many of whom do it in different ways that lead to varying results.

By baking the capability natively, at least it could ensure the most optimal implementation for the common case.
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:25 AM   #35
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I suppose. But first it'd have to happen, and I'm not sure we have devs' attention regarding the issue. :/
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:27 AM   #36
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Well, let's make sure, we do
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:44 AM   #37
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In the past, I've known reaper to be more able to handle more tracks than any other DAW... but never did scientific tests... so I wonder what other DAW's do with track counts like you are talking about?

Do you know???
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:53 AM   #38
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In the past, I've known reaper to be more able to handle more tracks than any other DAW... but never did scientific tests... so I wonder what other DAW's do with track counts like you are talking about?

Do you know???
In Cubase I have a template with roughly 3000 tracks which, thanks to the track deactivation feature, loads up in a few seconds and uses virtually 0 RAM (apart from the ~2gb that Cubase itself takes up) and 0% CPU. Then I can just load in/activate tracks as I go and usually can even stay at a 64 buffer even in very big projects.
I'm sure when comparing the exact same project with x amount of tracks in Cubase vs. REAPER, that REAPER might come out on top. But having a big template is near impossible to the extremely high idle CPU usage (plus the GUI problems make it even worse).
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:28 AM   #39
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In Cubase I have a template with roughly 3000 tracks which, thanks to the track deactivation feature, loads up in a few seconds and uses virtually 0 RAM (apart from the ~2gb that Cubase itself takes up) and 0% CPU. Then I can just load in/activate tracks as I go and usually can even stay at a 64 buffer even in very big projects.
I'm sure when comparing the exact same project with x amount of tracks in Cubase vs. REAPER, that REAPER might come out on top. But having a big template is near impossible to the extremely high idle CPU usage (plus the GUI problems make it even worse).
Thanks for that info... good to know... I haven't been in Cubase for years now so I don't even remember it very well...
So interesting that you can have a template that does that... but then when tracks become active... when you are using them... I'd expect, from past experiences that reaper can handle more... is that not true?
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:51 AM   #40
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Quote:
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with my theme muting alone doesn't darken the track.
Sorry for hopping in, but how do you do this as I thought the darkening is not themeable currently, or did this change meanwhile?

https://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4435
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