General thoughts on change of Groups - modernize nomenclature (in v6.11+dev0608)

[akademie]

To not de-rail the pre-release thread with slightly unrelated discussion, I made a extra thread.

v6.11+dev0608 - June 8 2020
+ Groups: modernize nomenclature

Originally Posted by akademie (in pre-release thread)
... and what about that "Master" name?
Shouldn't the pair now be called rather "Conduct-Follow" ? (Much more correct, so all can be satisfied).

Am I forced at present to trash all my hardware (audio cards etc.) where MASTER/SLAVE was used?
(Sorry but all that correctness is nonsense).
The nonsense is you being offended by it and the whataboutism.

Originally Posted by mlprod

The nonsense is you being offended by it and the whataboutism.

First thank you for your kind words. I am not offended now as was not before terminology change, even I work as kind of slave for my employer in his company (we almost all are), you know

And to be truth Anybody/Everybody can feel offended in one way or other (read bellow *).

But few my notices:

+The main part:
slave as a word is OK
the act of slaving someone (human) is not OK !!!

The Words are not The Acts! that's important, because to slave someone and call it follow is ... even worse (I think)!


+And another part:
What about other terminology (not specifically Reaper related)? Are we aware of them?

- parent / child
- orphans (like orphaned notes etc.)
- Master track
- master mix
- subgroup

(*)
Imagine people (their feelings) which cannot have children (for any reason)?
What about poor orphaned kids...?

"Blackmagic Design" company and their products are now safe and correct, OK?

Hey and what about rich spectrum when describing a sound... doesn't it have any connection to Bezos and alike???


+Practical point of view:
Manuals, help and threads here and elsewhere (personal messages and emails) just became less useful and wrong now because they all relate to Master-Slave process using the old-fashioned terminology (uuhh, are we even allowed to write "slave" in public like forums?) and therefore is now useless.
All newbies that will come to search for Master/Slave behavior will of course search for Master??-Follow, and sure they will not find anything...

...well solution in that specific case would be if forum has some thesaurus running underneath that will search for follow and slave if follow is entered only ...?

Anyway I see it as "Follow" is more social sites terminology ... something like a "Like"


Terminology shouldn't be politicized.


And few other crossing terms (again not directly Reaper related):
Kill process/application
Hanging notes
Blackout
Blacklisted
Whitelisted (oooh) .. that two do have serious meaning, don't they?
video/image processing - black/white balance ... oouch


Hey, let's people be rational, please, there are meanings of things in (real) life that have no relation to races, groups etc.. - It's the media/polit. manipulation and trend of course.

Death is connected (usually) to black color or dark as sad, wedding and bride is (usually) white color as happines etc. (it's emotions you know).


I am OK with the change in Reaper if it is needed, no problem, but that trend is more and more apparent in few last years unfortunatelly.


Anyway it has nothing to do with Reaper's awesomeness and its creator's and development team's power to drive its fast development.
Justin, do what you have to, sure.


EDIT:
Well, just quickly checked.. ReaMote servers now, ReWire client mode and other ReWire slave-now-client related.
So it is not just changing one teminology (Slave to Follow), but much more. Inconsistent (sure as it cannot be) - Ironically there was one word that covered all that cases (we all know that word)
In EU we have the similar correctness disaster - shame on them.

[xpander]

Akademie, this thread belongs into the pre-release discussion forum, unless you edit it into a general talk about the issues you have with the changes in technical nomenclature due to changing times and climate.

[Justin]

I moved this thread to the pre-release forum as it would be confusing elsewhere!

But: this change was made because we felt it was the right thing to do. You can have your opinion but honestly it's a waste of time for _everybody_ involved to continue to discuss it. So let's not. Thank you.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by Justin

I moved this thread to the pre-release forum as it would be confusing elsewhere!

But: this change was made because we felt it was the right thing to do. You can have your opinion but honestly it's a waste of time for _everybody_ involved to continue to discuss it. So let's not. Thank you.

OK, I hope it did not hurt that I write my opinions in relation to other parts of the problem (I mean histories of messages containing pre-change knowhow etc.).

As I already wrote, it's definitely your thing, so it's up to you.
Anyway thanks and if needed you can rather close/lock the thread.

[xpander]

Originally Posted by Justin

I moved this thread to the pre-release forum as it would be confusing elsewhere!

Thanks Justin. That's why I said it should be here. I'm sure general forums will have their talk about it when this is official and for everybody to see.

[puddi]

I just hope these were the pressing issues that had to be dealt with before resuming work on Area Selection

[nicholas]

Originally Posted by puddi

I just hope these were the pressing issues that had to be dealt with before resuming work on Area Selection

I think you'll find that devs can walk and chew gum at the same time....

[_Stevie_]

Brilliant metaphor

[Meo-Ada Mespotine]

@Justin
You've probably already thought of that but what about changing "master" as well.

I would suggest "primary" which still reflects what it is about and works well in conjunction with "follow".
It barely needs more space as a word and it should also be good for most translators out there. I think many languages have some representation of "primary" as well.

I think it would suit the nomenclature-changes in full and still be clear on what they mean.

(Another word I thought of was Guru, but this is probably only funny for old Amiga-users )

[JamesPeters]

Primary/follow is maybe not as good as lead/follow (or leader/follower). Not that I mind the current naming scheme.

[Meo-Ada Mespotine]

Lead/Follow is a good one.

[EvilDragon]

Again Reaper has to be "special" and deter possible new users already acquainted with the usual audio production terminology for no good reason...

[amagalma]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Again Reaper has to be "special" and deter possible new users already acquainted with the usual audio production terminology for no good reason...

It is a good reason. Besides, they'll get acquainted to the new terminology. One has to take the first step, and you ll see that the others will follow, because it is the right thing to do. I am totally with this change!

Btw, in Greek (my mother tongue) the names for these software terms have always been "κύριος" (=primary/main) and "ακόλουθος" (=follower). It would sound extremely strange and bad to Greek people if we had literally translated the term that is used in English (slave = "σκλάβος").

[JamesPeters]

Language gradually changes over time. With the Internet we get to see that happening more clearly, and some of the reasons. Some of it, I dislike (speaking in memes, for instance). Some of it, I don't mind. Some of it, I think may be beneficial to some degree for future generations. I try to not be as old in my ways as I am in my age. I've dealt with much larger changes in my life (and still am dealing with them), so learning something like this is trivial.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by amagalma

It is a good reason. Besides, they'll get acquainted to the new terminology. One has to take the first step, and you ll see that the others will follow, because it is the right thing to do.

Yeah, as if Reaper is the "industry standard" everyone is going to follow. Not really.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by amagalma

Btw, in Greek (my mother tongue) the names for these software terms have always been "κύριος" (=primary/main) and "ακόλουθος" (=follower). It would sound extremely strange and bad to Greek people if we had literally translated the term that is used in English (slave = "σκλάβος").

Σωστός! Ha, i didn't know you're half Greek

[puddi]

Originally Posted by nicholas

I think you'll find that devs can walk and chew gum at the same time....

Sure, I just figured maybe important stuff like this takes priority during these times. Can't risk having your software get cancelled on Twitter.

[nicholas]

Originally Posted by puddi

Sure, I just figured maybe important stuff like this takes priority during these times.

I think it best that I make no comment on this. Others might read it and form their own conclusions.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Again Reaper has to be "special" and deter possible new users already acquainted with the usual audio production terminology for no good reason...

Yes ED, that was also my point (in parallel to general one).

(But as Justin replied, he has a "good reason", so ... I think we gonna like it then )

[Meo-Ada Mespotine]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Yeah, as if Reaper is the "industry standard" everyone is going to follow. Not really.

But that's the reason the devs used "follow". As imperative XD

@amagalma
Interesting that in greek in comes down to my suggestion as well. I wonder how other languages deal with it.

Edit: in german, I think it would come down to "primär" and "sekundär",which means primary and secondary respectively.
But I think it hasn't been settled yet fully.

[airon]

Follow works for me. Thank you. *click*

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

Brilliant metaphor

One of the core requirements for admission to MTSU when I lived in Nashvegas.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by JamesPeters

Primary/follow is maybe not as good as lead/follow (or leader/follower). Not that I mind the current naming scheme.

Yep, that is the best option!

[schwa]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Again Reaper has to be "special" and deter possible new users already acquainted with the usual audio production terminology for no good reason...

Deter?

[EvilDragon]

Yeah if something doesn't use familiar terminology, one might quite reasonably be deterred from delving in deeper? It's not that uncommon of a thing to happen.

[amagalma]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Σωστός! Ha, i didn't know you're half Greek

Not half, but totally :P In the sense that I was born and grew up here. Not in any nationalistic sense, I hate nationalism...

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Yeah, as if Reaper is the "industry standard" everyone is going to follow. Not really.

Steps forward are made by pioneers, not by conformists

Originally Posted by Meo-Ada Mespotine

@amagalma
Interesting that in greek in comes down to my suggestion as well. I wonder how other languages deal with it.

Edit: in german, I think it would come down to "primär" and "sekundär",which means primary and secondary respectively.
But I think it hasn't been settled yet fully.

Maybe the terms master/slave (in software) are used in languages where slavery existed in their recent history/culture? Or in those that choose to translate literally foreign terms? I don't know..

[nicholas]

Originally Posted by amagalma

Maybe the terms master/slave (in software) are used in languages where slavery existed in their recent history/culture?

You might be on to something there. For my part,I am baffled that evidently some people seem to have some sort of deep attachment to the word.

[Zeno]

Why change? Is this one of those "Black-Lives-Matter-Things"? Or is it about sex practices? We have been using these terms in the audio industry for decades without any racist thoughts. Please do everybody a favor and stop complicating things without any sense or added value. Thank you! -.-'


Otherwise I have some suggestions for names here:

For Master:
"Absolutely-politically-correct-named-track-whose-parameters-should-(but-don't-have-to)-be-followed-by-all-tracks-linked-to-it-TRACK"

For Slave:
"Absolutely-politically-correct-named-track-that-follows-all-the-advice-given-to-it-(from-another-linked-track-which-is-also-named-absolutely-politically-correct)-but-has-free-will-and-is-never-suppressed-TRACK"

Should be very easy to understand for beginners.


*IRONY off

[Phazma]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Yeah if something doesn't use familiar terminology, one might quite reasonably be deterred from delving in deeper? It's not that uncommon of a thing to happen.

I don’t know how big of a thing master-slave/follow groups are as I don’t use them and never ran into the word “slave” while using Reaper (and wouldn’t mind if I did) but it seems to me that when it comes to different DAWs there are much bigger inconsistencies in nomenclature, for example
Item (Reaper) = Region (Logic) = Event (Cubase) = Clip (FL Studio) and the list goes on..
So while I personally would prefer any other added feature instead of changing names of things, I don’t mind it at all if Cockos decide that this is an important change to make for them. As long as they don’t break any existing functionality they can do whatever they want, which won’t stop them from sometimes adding also stuff that I find very useful.

I wonder tough if they predicted a political discussion happening when they made this change.. I at least found it hilarious how a Reaper-feature can spark a political discussion.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Phazma

but it seems to me that when it comes to different DAWs there are much bigger inconsistencies in nomenclature, for example
Item (Reaper) = Region (Logic) = Event (Cubase) = Clip (FL Studio) and the list goes on..

It doesn't matter how anything called between DAWs, but it is very important to have consistency inside the DAW. For now a lot of things inside Reaper are inconsistent. It is difficult sometimes to find an action in this looong list.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by Phazma

I don’t know how big of a thing master-slave/follow groups are ...
<snip...

It is not only "Groups" what's changed! Only Groups are listed in changelog, but others are not listed there

Also ReWire changed from slave to client and alike everywhere in Reaper, ReaMote slaves are now ReaMote servers.

Check the pre+dev yourself.

EDIT: I have to say that in case of ReaMote it may be even better to use servers over slaves, from the technical point of view. Also it's proprietary Cockos'/Reaper's technology/feature. While ReWire slave and Master/Slave (in wide range of audio/non-audio applications) terminology is standard over 10ths of years without any artificial meaning.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by akademie

ReaMote slaves are now ReaMote servers.

EDIT: I have to say that in case of ReaMote it may be even better to use servers over slaves

This one should have been changed a long time ago. It's even about logic. Now it's time to rename actions to be consistent.

[puddi]

Originally Posted by Zeno

Why change? Is this one of those "Black-Lives-Matter-Things"? Or is it about sex practices? We have been using these terms in the audio industry for decades without any racist thoughts. Please do everybody a favor and stop complicating things without any sense or added value. Thank you! -.-'


Otherwise I have some suggestions for names here:

For Master:
"Absolutely-politically-correct-named-track-whose-parameters-should-(but-don't-have-to)-be-followed-by-all-tracks-linked-to-it-TRACK"

For Slave:
"Absolutely-politically-correct-named-track-that-follows-all-the-advice-given-to-it-but-has-free-will-and-is-never-suppressed-TRACK"


*IRONY off

Changes like these tends to come from virtue signalling white people who hears the word "slave" in a completely non-political context and instantly think of black people. It's the same with Google who's changing the standard terminology whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist because their minds are occupied with race and skin color. So woke.

[Klangfarben]

I honestly have no issue with the name change. I think it's a classy move on the devs part and their small way of saying, hey this matters to us.

I also have no issue with master staying as is. Master can imply a lot of different things. It doesn't imply "owner". The term has been around a long time in the recording industry with different meanings. A master fader, mix, a record master, etc. In the software world we have "golden master". So, I don't think that because slave was changed that master also needs to change. Whereas slave has a much more specific meaning/context.

I understand the term slave has been around for a while in the record industry as well, but it has applied mostly to tape machines. So, imho it is in a way fitting that Cockos is dumping the term because we don't use reel-to-reel anymore either. The term is superfluous. It isn't needed.

For those of you saying it's just a word and people are getting triggered, well, it's the devs program and they get to decide what it means to them. Now more than ever, words have meaning and I applaud the move.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by puddi

Changes like these tends to come from virtue signalling white people who hears the word "slave" in a completely non-political context and instantly think of black people. It's the same with Google who's changing the standard terminology whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist because their minds are occupied with race and skin color. So woke.

Exactly ^^^^. That's it. Unfortunately :-(

[Funkybot]

I think keep it as simple as possible: Leader/Follower.

The options on the Grouping screen make it clear what the leader does, and what the followers do.

There may be contexts where Primary/Secondary works better. But for grouping options, Leader/Follower makes more sense.

Regarding the politics of the issue: I'd say get over it. Things change. Language is a living, breathing thing. If you're not offended by the old language then good for you. The new language shouldn't bother you either. If the reason you're offended is political correctness, then I'd just point out that complaining about how everyone is else is a snowflake [not saying anyone here has] is a form of snowflake-ism in and of itself. Complaining about virtue-signalling is a form of virtue-signalling [you are literally signalling "my virtues are different than yours"].

A decision has been made, it's Justin's software to do with as he pleases. It's his company. He wants to build a company with an inclusive product and while the change may not mean a whole lot to you, it may mean something to someone else. So if Justin decides he wants to change it, best thing to do would be to help improve the product by coming up with the best nomenclature we can think of and move on. We're all adults [presumably].

[schwa]

I deeply despise the term "virtue signaling," which I find to be smug and dismissive. I also dislike "triggered."

The only meaning these phrases convey is that the person using the phrase feels the need to both imagine, and then judge, somebody else's state of mind.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by puddi

Changes like these tends to come from virtue signalling white people who hears the word "slave" in a completely non-political context and instantly think of black people. It's the same with Google who's changing the standard terminology whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist because their minds are occupied with race and skin color. So woke.

Or you can understand that just like a confederate flag from the US, the term is always going to imply something negative to a large number of people and that by changing the term, you aren't trying to be "woke" - you are trying to be respectful to a large number of people to whom the term is abhorrent.

[Meo-Ada Mespotine]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Or you can understand that just like a confederate flag from the US, the term is always going to imply something negative to a large number of people and that by changing the term, you aren't trying to be "woke" - you are trying to be respectful to a large number of people to whom the term is abhorrent.

Yes.

And if the change is really a problem for users: they will ask why they cannot find the word slave anymore and people will kindly say, it is now follow.

And in regards of trackgroups, I think people will not search for slave, but for Track Grouping instead.
If they use the search-function in the first place(which we all know many will not for one reason or two :P ).

It's funny, that when the devs change something bigger on a technical level to get rid of problems of the past, that could have a bigger effect, it never creates its own threads and this momentum. It gets discussed, problems arising through that fixed by suggestions of improvements and that's it.
Now they changed one word for the better, it even gets its own thread.
Nothing broke.
Reaper still works as before.
It did not even cause a second nose growing in the quite inconvenient place of the butt.
All that changed was a word that is a real offensive one for some. And that change will not cause any harm to those not offended.

I personally find the change good. If some words are not chosen as precisely as they should be, make a suggestion for a better one.

Language evolves and naturally things will not be used in the future. So unless Reaper is being translated into old-shakespearean-english, there is no real problem in there.

And yes, why not working through the technical terms making them better?
I mean, since when did the Master-track wear lord-like-wardrobe or enslave people? This is definitely no precise nomenclature.
And doing the same thing "just because we always did" is no good reason for keeping on doing bad things.

I mean, how many of you still record with 4-track-tape-machines? This is how most of the times nonDAWs were used for decades. And hell, even the Beatles used them on some of their successful recordings. THE BEATLES!!11!!
We still got rid of them good old tape-machines. Because the world changes.

And so do words.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Zeno

Why change?

We have been using these terms in the audio industry for decades without any racist thoughts.

This was my first thought as well.

I've probably used and set up master and slave reels on more projects than just about anyone in this forum.

I never thought about slavery while doing it.

But therein lies the problem. I wasn't thinking about it. I've worked in 100s of studios over the years and none of them were ever black owned. And none of the engineers helping me make these slave reels were ever black either.

Sometimes you need to step back. Think. And decide what's more important. Calling things the name you're "used to"? Or moving on and being a tiny part of the solution.

I think this is the world's tiniest sacrifice we can all make. And it's actually more descriptive.