Old 08-09-2008, 11:54 AM   #1
stratman
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Default Midi/Audio Routing Question

Sorry if this is a bit long winded and complicated but, if explain what I’m trying to do and why, maybe someone can explain if there’s a better way. There’s a question at the end.

I recently got Garritan Personal Orchestra (GPO) that comes with the Kontakt 2 player VSTi to host the GPO library.

Problem:
I started off by loading up a separate instance of Kontakt player for every instrument I wanted to use, but found that this is not a good method. Each instance of Kontakt player uses about 82MB of RAM, even without any sounds loaded. So this method eats up RAM very quickly, as I can typically be using 10 or more instruments.

Non-Ideal Solution:
A better method is to load a single instance of Kontakt player and get it to host all the instruments I want to use, with each instrument set to receive on a different midi channel. The picture below shows a very simple example of the type of routing I’m using. It’s the io for track 1.



Track 1 has the Kontakt player VSTi. For the purpose of the example, to keep things simple, there are only three instruments loaded into it. A trumpet set to receive midi channel 1, strings (midi channel 2) and piano (midi channel 3).

The midi parts for a trumpet, strings and piano are on tracks 2, 3 and 4. Track 1 is set to receive from tracks 2, 3 and 4 on midi channels 1, 2 and 3 respectively.

If I enabled the Master/Parent send on Track 1, then I’d hear a combination of all three instruments together on Track 1, but I don't want this. Instead, I want to bring up the Audio on three separate Track faders, so I’ve disabled the Track 1 Master/Parent send and sent the VSTi multi channel outputs to three separate tracks (5,6 and 7). This means the faders on tracks 5, 6 and 7 control the levels for the trumpet, strings and piano separately.

This does exactly what I want but…

Question:
Can I do it using less tracks? For example, it would be good if I didn’t have to use tracks 5, 6 and 7 and I could send the audio to tracks 2, 3 and 4 instead. Then tracks 2, 3 and 4 would contain the midi and the faders would also control the audio levels, which would be a neater solution. I tried this and, if I ‘Allow Feedback’ under the Project settings, I get sound through but it’s garbled and glitchy.

Does anyone know of a neat solution using less tracks?

Pete

Last edited by stratman; 08-09-2008 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 08-09-2008, 02:50 PM   #2
Susan G
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Hi Pete-

I don't have an answer for you, but I'm dealing with the same thing myself and I'll watch this thread with interest.

I'm not at my DAW right now, but I have the MIDI tracks driving GPO in a folder with GPO as an FX, and of course it sends all output to the Master.

I'd like to be able to split out the audio outputs, too, while keeping this as neat & clean as possible (fewest additional tracks).

No help, I know, but at least you're not alone!

-Susan
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Old 08-09-2008, 04:35 PM   #3
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Hi,
please read this thread that's about this exact question:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=23770
I attached a template in post 18 (infact there's one attached in post 13, but that one has some flaws you can read about following the thread).

The template is only 4 midi/ stereo audio tracks, but following the routine, you can quite easily add more 'subtracks'. (I cannot promise that, as I never needed more yet, so I didn't try. But I can't think of a logical reason why it shouldn't work)

Feedback routing has to be enabled in the project settings to do this (don't ask me why...), and I read of some people having problems with that, but here it works just fine. I am also using this template for GPO.

The trick is to have a dedicated vsti-track that has master/send disabled and one midi/audio track per channel, all enclosed in a folder working like an Instrument bus.
You can even have a mixture of midi and audio FX plugins inserted per channel and seperate sends to FX busses, all works very nice here.

Hope it will work for you.
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Old 08-09-2008, 05:55 PM   #4
stratman
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gofer. I checked the other thread and it was very helpful.

If I put them in a folder, in a similar manner to you, then it works OK (see picture below).



But, when I use the same routing and don't have the tracks in a folder I get a garbled crackly sound. I don't understand that at all. I'm very confused because it doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, I've got a system that works now

Many thanks gofer.

Pete

Last edited by stratman; 08-09-2008 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 08-09-2008, 06:42 PM   #5
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Yes, the folder seems to be important, though I don't know why either.
And there's still definitely something weird. I never had issues with that routing. (Not that I have very much experience with it as I only use it since that thread was made.) Until today, when I put a send to a reverb bustrack on one of the subtracks and got that crackling.
But only on one of the subtracks and only one of my FX busses. The bus works well being fed by any other track and the subtrack works well sent to other busses.
In other projects I can work with as many sends as I want without glitches.

There's something not quite there with that routing I'm afraid.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:05 AM   #6
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I still don't understand what may cause the problem in the first place, but the crackling send works well when I untick 'Synchronous FX multiprocessing' in the prefs.
That gives me a slightly higher reading for RT CPU in the performance window when I have tracks armed for monitoring, but I can well live with that.

With this option unticked I could also do this routing without a folder enclosing all tracks, though I won't do that, for practical reasons.

Nevertheless it would be interesting to know why this sort of routing is considered a feedback routing in the first place. We are sending midi data from one track to another and audio data back to the first. Technically there should be no problem with feedback here.
I just feel a bit unsecure with the caps USE CAUTION sign on.
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Old 08-10-2008, 05:01 AM   #7
stratman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
I still don't understand what may cause the problem in the first place, but the crackling send works well when I untick 'Synchronous FX multiprocessing' in the prefs.
Same here. If I untick 'Synchronous FX multiprocessing' it works fine and I don't have to use a folder.

Could this be a bug?

Pete
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