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Old 04-25-2022, 08:16 AM   #1
splitting_ears
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Default [6.55] PDC click/pop issue with take FX

I found an issue with item/take FX that causes rendered items to glitch at the very beginning. It's quite small but most of the time causes an audible click/pop on playback, as the waveform doesn't start at a zero-crossing point. I could replicate this issue multiple times but the glitch varies significantly throughout different renders.

It seems a potential fix is to revert back to the "classic" PDC calculation (per-FX). Unfortunately, there's no global option for it so you have to adjust it manually for every new item. Adjusting fades on items doesn't fix the issue either.

Here's a comparison between the two methods:

Per-chain PDC


Per-FX PDC


And lastly, here's my plug-in chain. Unfortunately, I couldn't pinpoint the problem to one specific plug-in, neither could I reproduce the bug with plug-ins that are provided natively with Reaper.
VST or VST3 don't seem to make any difference, as well as disabling the higher quality offline render modes for the plug-ins I've chosen here. However, it seems that processing heavy plug-ins are more likely to make the glitch happen.


STEPS TO REPRODUCE
  • insert a media item
  • put some VST/VST3 plug-ins on it
  • render selected media items via master (online or offline makes no difference)

Be careful that you sometimes have to render the item multiple times to see the glitch happen. I also tried to check and uncheck every option for anticipative FX processing, buffering and so on. Nothing seemed to make a difference, but modifying the PDC settings was the first thing that seemed to help with this behaviour.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Last edited by splitting_ears; 04-25-2022 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 04-25-2022, 08:32 AM   #2
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Hmm could be a plug-in that doesn't properly flush its buffers (and the PDC mode change causes those samples to get consumed by another plug-in, or something).. can you narrow it down to which plug-in needs to be involved? I know you said you haven't been able to, but I bet you can In the chain above, which plug-ins use PDC?
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Old 04-25-2022, 09:05 AM   #3
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Thanks for replying so quickly!
Well, that's the strangest thing. When tested on their own, none of these plug-ins generate any issue.

I've once again tried multiple renders with all options and combinations, and it seems the only way to get consistent clicks/pops on the rendered file is to have the EQ first and Kelvin second. The reverse seems to work properly.
That's why I'm posting here, because it seems that the cause of the problem lies in the interaction between the plug-ins.

By the way, you can forget about the limiter as I could generate clicks without it. Sorry for not testing this enough before posting here.
Also note this behaviour also happens with a 2sec fade-in on the item.

As for your question on PDC, I'm not sure to understand it correctly but TDR SlickEQ M reports a latency of 1708 samples, and Kelvin reports a latency of 64 samples that goes up to 97 when rendering offline. Is that what you needed? I've tried again to disable the higher quality rendering option of these two plug-ins, but still no change.

Last edited by splitting_ears; 04-25-2022 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 04-25-2022, 10:04 AM   #4
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I've reached out to the plug-in devs to see if we can get a version of SlickEQ to test.

In the mean time, try changing the settings on both of these plug-ins, click the + button, go to Compatibility Settings, note the setting of "Hard reset on playback start", and try toggling it to see if that fixes. If it does, please let us know what it was set to and what setting fixed it!
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Old 04-25-2022, 10:09 AM   #5
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Many thanks for your help! Unfortunately, the "hard reset on playback start" option had no effect on this issue.
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Old 04-25-2022, 10:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splitting_ears View Post
Many thanks for your help! Unfortunately, the "hard reset on playback start" option had no effect on this issue.
Thanks.

Does the issue only occur when rendering via master, or does the action "Render item as new take" also present the issue?

Can you give me a minimal project with media to test? Also what versions of the plug-ins do you have installed?
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Old 04-25-2022, 10:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splitting_ears View Post
Well, that's the strangest thing. When tested on their own, none of these plug-ins generate any issue.
Can you post SlickEQ M's (and if in doubt, also Limiter 6 GE's) state into this thread to help me understand the situation? (right click over blank UI area > share state)
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Old 04-25-2022, 10:40 AM   #8
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For sure. SlickEQ M is 2.0.5, Limiter 6 GE is 1.2.4, and Kelvin is 1.5.

Fabien, here's the state of the plug-ins you requested:
Code:
<TDRSlickEQM bandOn1="On" bandShape1="Low Shelf" bandFreq1="80" bandGain1="0.0" bandQ1="Steep II" bandStereoWidth1="0.0" bandStereoBalance1="0.0" bandOn2="On" bandShape2="Bell" bandFreq2="140" bandGain2="0.0" bandQ2="Steep I" bandStereoWidth2="0.0" bandStereoBalance2="0.0" bandOn3="On" bandShape3="Bell" bandFreq3="340" bandGain3="0.0" bandQ3="Normal" bandStereoWidth3="0.0" bandStereoBalance3="0.0" bandOn4="On" bandShape4="Bell" bandFreq4="680" bandGain4="0.0" bandQ4="Normal" bandStereoWidth4="0.0" bandStereoBalance4="0.0" bandOn5="On" bandShape5="Bell" bandFreq5="2800" bandGain5="0.0" bandQ5="Steep I" bandStereoWidth5="0.0" bandStereoBalance5="0.0" bandOn6="On" bandShape6="High Shelf" bandFreq6="4500" bandGain6="0.0" bandQ6="Shallow I" bandStereoWidth6="0.0" bandStereoBalance6="0.0" highPassOn="Off" highPassQ="24dB/oct" hpFreqParam="10" lfElliptical="Off" lfEllipticalFreq="20" lpBypassParam="Off" lowPassQ="12dB/oct" lowPassFreq="60000" centerFilterOn="On" centerFilterType="EL Curve" centerFilterAmount="0.0" nonlinearityLowOn="Off" nonlinearityLowAmount="0.0" nonlinearityHighOn="Off" nonlinearityHighAmount="0.0" outGainParam="0.0" outWidthParam="0.0" outBalanceParam="0.0" eqRange="100" eqRangeMode="Full" autoGainParam="On" bypassParam="Off" channelParam="Stereo" qualityParam="Precise" displayScaleParam="Scale: +- 18 dB" analyzerScaleParam="48 dB" showFreqMagnitudeParam="Off" analyzerSourceParam="Out" newAutoGainParam="On" newNonlinearity="Exciters" lfExciterOn="Off" lfExciterAmount="100.0" lfExciterFreq="40" hfExciterOn="Off" hfExciterAmount="100.0" hfExciterFreq="12000" analyzerStereoMode="Wid." mixedPhaseParam="Pan+Width" fixedLatencyParam="On"/>
Code:
<TDRLimiter6GE compEnabled="Off" compVisible="Off" compMSEnabled="Off" compMode="Alpha" compGain="0.0" compWidthGain="0.0" compThresh="0.0" compWidthThresh="0.0" compRatio="3.0" compAttack="10" compRelease="100" compDryMixMode="Dry Amount" compDryWet="0.0" compDryMix="off" compMeterScale="2 dB" peakLimiterEnabled="On" peakLimiterVisible="On" peakLimiterMSEnabled="Off" peakLimiterGain="0.0" peakLimiterWidthGain="0.0" peakLimiterThreshold="-0.3" peakLimiterWidthThreshold="0.0" peakLimiterBrickwall="On" peakLimiterMultiband="Off" peakLimiterLookahead="1x" peakLimiterFocus="0.0" peakLimiterRelease="50" peakLimiterDryMixMode="Dry Amount" peakLimiterDryWet="0.0" peakLimiterDryMix="off" peakLimiterMeterScale="2 dB" hfLimiterEnabled="Off" hfLimiterVisible="Off" hfLimiterMSEnabled="Off" hfLimiterThreshold="0.0" hfLimiterWidthThreshold="0.0" hfLimiterRange="0.0" hfLimiterWidthRange="0.0" hfLimiterFrequency="5000" hfLimiterType="Rel." hfLimiterDryMixMode="Dry Amount" hfLimiterDryWet="0.0" hfLimiterDryMix="off" hfLimiterMeterScale="2 dB" hfLimiterSolo="Off" clipperEnabled="On" clippervisible="On" clipperMSEnabled="Off" clipperGain="0.0" clipperWidthGain="0.0" clipperThreshold="-1.0" clipperWidthThreshold="0.0" clipperMode="LF Clipper" clipperSeparation="0" clipperKnee="0.5" clipperDryMixMode="Dry Amount" clipperDryWet="0.0" clipperDryMix="off" clipperMeterScale="2 dB" outputDrive="0.0" outputCeilingTP="-0.3" outputCeilingPCM="-1.0" outputLimit="True Peak" outputMeterScale="4 dB" meterEnabled="On" meterVisible="On" meterConfigEnabled="Off" meterPeakRange="30 dB" meterEbuRange="30 LU" meterEbuScale="Absolute" meterEbuZero="-9.0" meterPeakBoxMode="TRUE PEAK max" meterLoudnessBoxMode="MOMENTARY max" moduleOrder="3" delta="Off" bypass="Off" autoPad="Off" quality="Precise" channels="Stereo" dithering="Off"/>
Here is also a link to a project that can be used to replicate the issue : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1imz...ew?usp=sharing


It seems that it only happens when rendering the media item via master. I tried multiple renders as new takes and none of the resulting items had any problem, even with more plug-ins.
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Old 04-25-2022, 11:06 AM   #9
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Thanks, can you post your reaper.ini too?

Edit: actually a zip of reaper*.ini would be better
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Old 04-25-2022, 11:42 AM   #10
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Another thing to try would be to try replacing one of the two plug-ins with another plug-in that requires the same amount of PDC (you can use ReaComp with the pre-comp slider adjusted to get the same value)... and see if you can do it with one+ReaComp, that would be helpful in narrowing it down!

(I've tested your project and haven't been able to duplicate the issue yet)
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Old 04-25-2022, 12:43 PM   #11
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Here's a zip of the ini files: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KPS...ew?usp=sharing


Despite many attempts, I couldn't replicate the issue with Reacomp latency adjusted. But here's an interesting thing I found: It looks like you have to cancel the render once before it has time to complete for the problem to occur. After cancelling once, it no longer matters whether the rendering has enough time to complete or not, and the issue will then happen almost anytime.

Hope that helps.
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Old 04-25-2022, 01:21 PM   #12
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Thanks, got to the root of this! A fix is possible on our end (and I've communicated the underlying cause to TDR)
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Old 04-25-2022, 01:39 PM   #13
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Thank you so very much!! I've been trying to figure out this problem for days. Glad to know it can be solved!
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Old 04-25-2022, 02:16 PM   #14
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Awesome Justin, been noticing this behaviour on the SSL Native channel strip too.
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Old 04-25-2022, 11:29 PM   #15
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I have this issue with many many different plugs. Would be awesome to have it fixed!
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Old 04-26-2022, 12:23 AM   #16
Hermetech Mastering
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Same, in my chain the Softube Chandler Germ Comps always do this, if I remove them, the click is gone.
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Old 04-26-2022, 05:33 AM   #17
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If y’all would like to try the latest +dev build (pre-release forum) it should fix this!
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Old 04-28-2022, 07:32 AM   #18
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Looks like this bug is fixed here, many thanks! Can others please confirm this with other plug-ins?

One last question though: from what I've gathered here [p=2450386], should we assume that we have to contact the plug-in developers instead if such a problem occurs again in the future?

Last edited by splitting_ears; 04-28-2022 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 04-28-2022, 11:27 AM   #19
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I'll test once it makes the Release build!
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