Strange pins behaviour

[ferropop]

Hey all, I'm having a weird issue with Softube TubeTech EQ mkii. (VST3)

Here are the pins when used on a normal 2-channel track:



Here they are if I change the number of channels, whether that's manually or by adding a 3/4 send to it:


^^ clearly this is wrong (ex: doing a boost only operates on the left channel!) and there's no way to make this work normally!

Any suggestions?

[ferropop]

I'll add, if I use the VST2 instance I get the correct pins :



Is this a plugin-specific issue, or Reaper?

[mschnell]

Looks like the VBT3 is mono.

Weird.
-Michael

[ferropop]

Just found this thread when digging deeper :

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=269333


Looks like most Softube VST3 plugins do this. I can't imagine we have to set the VST3 bus size every time we want to use a plugin?

[schwa]

Can you get the VST3 back to stereo mode by changing the VST3 bus size dropdown in the pin connector? It looks like the plugin is reacting in an unexpected way to the "auto" bus size.

[skylar_battles]

Should I check in the saturation freebie if the behavior is the same or is that not helpful?

[ferropop]

hey @schwa




Switching it to 3 and then back to 2 seems to reset it. No way to get this to stick, I have to do it on every instantiation.

[schwa]

This is with the released version of REAPER or a prerelease build?

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by schwa

This is with the released version of REAPER or a prerelease build?

Most recent pre. Recently switching everything over to VST3 and noticed this a few weeks ago when using it on Folders (that tend to have 3/4+ chans) in my template.

[schwa]

Is the behavior any different in the release version?

[ferropop]

Exact same behaviour, just tried the latest release version.

I can switch back to VST2 for now, but yeah it's tough not being able to rely on the correct channel mappings happening automatically. But yeah thanks for looking at it!

[ferropop]

And yeah can confirm it happens with other Softube plugins also, as per the other thread : https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=269333

[ferropop]

Another thread dating back to 2019 : https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=225102

Someone suggested unchecking "inform plug-in when track channel count changes" as a quick fix?

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Switching it to 3 and then back to 2 seems to reset it. No way to get this to stick, I have to do it on every instantiation.

Seems the plugin is trying to be helpful and switches to Mono if the track count it is given is = 1. But they seem to switch to mono not by "equal to 1" but by "not equal to 2".

-Michael

[Justin]

Have a possible fix for this coming in the next +dev build, will be interested to see if it works!

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by Justin

Have a possible fix for this coming in the next +dev build, will be interested to see if it works!

Thanks so much, esp if the onus should actually be on Softube! (which sounds likely)

[ScuzzyEye]

Seems like it's partly fixed. Softube VST3s that used to show up as "2 in 2 out" now say, "2 in+out" on the routing button. And they stay stereo for track channel counts >2. With the track channel set to 2, and then changing the bus size to 1, the plugin stays in stereo mode. It takes some changing up and down the track count and bus size to get the plugin to go into mono on a 2 channel track, but it can be done with enough fiddling.

What isn't fixed is any effect that has a side-chain input. Sticking with the Tube-Tech effects, but going with the CL 1B mkII compressor. Its routing button says, "2/3 in 2 out". Changing the track channels to anything other than 2, and leaving the bus size as Auto makes it fall into mono mode. With 1 input and 1 sidechain.

Not sure if this is related, but I've noticed with the Pianoteq 8 VST3, in the FX browser it is listed as 1->5ch, but when added to a stereo track it says, "1 in 2/4 out". Increasing the track channels to 6, has it say "1 in 4 out". The names of the output pins are: Output, Aux1, Aux2, Aux3. Inside the plug-in they are Outputs 1-5, but Output 5 is never active. In other DAWs, the "Output" is a stereo pair, and each Aux are mono. In Reaper when the instrument is playing in stereo you get the the left on Output, and the right on Aux1. This hasn't changed in 0416 either.

[ferropop]

Justin, thanks for looking at this.

I just switched my FabFilter Pro-Q3 to VST3 and noticed some weird behaviour.

If I put it on a a track that has a bunch of sidechain receives coming to it (3/4, 5,6+)... the pins for Pro-Q3 incorrectly map themselves as Quadraphonic+ audio!

The result is, ALL the sidechain signals appear in the frequency visualizer!

The worst side-effect is that when using Dynamic EQ points, they're reacting to the sidechain signals as if they were the main 1/2 signal. This is grossly incorrect.

Just wanted to bring it up, any thoughts? The fix is to (every time) set the VST3 bus size to Stereo, which is not a great fix for arguably the most used plugin in a person's arsenal.

[ferropop]

Sending 110Hz to 3/4, 220Hz to 5/6, 440Hz to 7/8 of Track 1.

Track 1 itself has no audio, it is silent.

Yet Pro-Q3 is showing (and reacting to) all those "sidechain" signals!

Manually setting VST3 Bus Size to Stereo makes it behave.

[ferropop]

https://www.fabfilter.com/help/pro-q/using/surround

^^ Explains the plugin's logic (I suspect).

[mschnell]

How should a plugin newly being dropped in a multi-channel track know which channel is supposed to have what meaning ? AFAIU, the only standard is first channel = left,second channel = right. All others depend on the usage case. AFAIU, usually VST3 don't see and correctly understand the parameters set with VTS2s when they replace them in place.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by mschnell

How should a plugin newly being dropped in a multi-channel track know which channel is supposed to have what meaning ? AFAIU, the only standard is first channel = left,second channel = right. All others depend on the usage case. AFAIU, usually VST3 don't see and correctly understand the parameters set with VTS2s when they replace them in place.

yeah it's defaulting to multichannel, but just as easily could be argued that for a workflow that uses 3/4+ as sidechain and does no multichannel-audio work at all, it's defaulting to exactly the wrong thing. so hoping there's a way to bridge that, which (just a guess honestly) would serve the majority of users

[Andreya]

I encountered this behavior in pro-Q too. What I did about it is to save Pro-Q as an FX chain after doing the setup to force stereo. Then I load (with a hotkey) that fx chain instead of loading pro-q the normal way. That works here.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by Andreya

I encountered this behavior in pro-Q too. What I did about it is to save Pro-Q as an FX chain after doing the setup to force stereo. Then I load (with a hotkey) that fx chain instead of loading pro-q the normal way. That works here.

Thanks Andreya, does it save the VST bus size? I can't test rn but I suspect if you were to drag another sidechain onto the track, it would revert and "try to be smart" by adding another multichannel pair.