Slow Graphics/Zoom/Navigation Question

[MRMJP]

I've been using REAPER for awhile now without this issue on a variety of machines...2013 iMac Pro, 2019 Mac Pro, various laptops etc.

I just set up a new M2 Ultra Mac Pro and for some reason, certain graphics (such as the playback cursor) and other navigational/zooming things in REAPER are pretty slow/choppy. Some other actions like using shortcuts to rearrange items on a track or adjust the item gain are also sluggish at times. Overall, it seems stable though. No audio dropouts.

Other DAWs like WaveLab and iZotope RX don't do this, just REAPER. My session is very simple and I currently have all plugins "Offline" so I don't think it's a CPU bottleneck. The jittery playback cursor It's especially noticeable as I zoom in closer. Not insanely close, but the performance is worse than on my 2019 Mac Pro by a notable amount.

I imported the configuration from my 2019 Mac Pro setup where this issue didn't occur. It also doesn't seem to happen on my M1 MacBook Pro.

Are there any deep settings I can change to make the graphics more smooth on an Apple M2 that might not have been an issue on my Intel Mac Pro?

I'm using v6.80/MacOS-arm64

Here's a screen shot of the Performance Tab while I'm playing audio and experiencing the sluggish cursor:

[MRMJP]

So far, I have seemed to narrow it down to this:

I am using two displays:

1) Samsung 55" 4K TV
2) DELL 32" curved monitor (nothing special, slightly old)

Both are connected via their own HDMI port form the back of the Mac Pro.

I've been spending all morning disconnecting various things to see what makes the issue happen or go away and this is what I've found.

When I disconnect the DELL 32" monitor and only use one screen (the Samsung 55" TV), the graphics have yet to get slow/choppy.

Is there any setting in REAPER (or perhaps MacOS) that might cause this?

[MRMJP]

I'm not sure if he's on this forum or what his username but shout-out to REAPER ninja and absolute legend Dmitri for pointing me to what seems to be the fix for this.

Now I can have both displays connected and nothing is slow.

I had to flip the "Display Updates" setting to Disable for whatever reason. Maybe this setting is the way forward for M2 users.

[MRMJP]

While this issue is kind of solved, it'd be great if one of the REAPER devs could expand on what the "Display Updates" setting is meant to do, and what compromises there might be by disabling it as I had to do for some reason.

With my Intel Mac Pro and former iMac Pro, I apparently had this setting enabled, but for some reason on the new M2 Mac Pro, this setting had to be disabled.

I'm not sure if it's a REAPER bug or just something related to the nature of the M2 with two HDMI outputs.

Both displays are set to 60Hz Refresh rate. Attached are some images of other settings and specs.

[MRMJP]

Even though this issue is fixed, I'd love to know if the REAPER developers could comment on what this setting is really doing and if something needs to be optimized with REAPER to work on MacOS 13.4/M2 so that this setting can be turned back on like it was before.

I checked the REAPER manual and it just mentions the existence of the setting but not what it actually does.

[benorbeen]

The description of your issue sounds a little like my issue on my new Macbook Air 15-inch, 32GB. I describe it here:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=280242

I'm going to look at your advice of disabling the Display updates to see if it fixes my issue.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by benorbeen

The description of your issue sounds a little like my issue on my new Macbook Air 15-inch, 32GB. I describe it here:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=280242

I'm going to look at your advice of disabling the Display updates to see if it fixes my issue.

Very interesting, thanks for the report. It seems that maybe something with the new M2 chip is causing this issue with slow REAPER graphics.

Since my initial post, I have replaced the 32" DELL secondary display with a new Apple Studio Display and the issue with REAPER remains, so it's definitely not the DELL.

Thanks for contributing to this thread.

[Justin]

If you re-enable metal drawing, and then check the “throttle mouse events” boxes at the bottom, how does it behave then?

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

If you re-enable metal drawing, and then check the “throttle mouse events” boxes at the bottom, how does it behave then?

Thanks. I will try this next time I'm in REAPER. It's one of those issues that takes a little time to be noticeable.

At first, I thought this updated fixed it but after 30 minutes or so, the issue was back so I changed the setting back for now.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

If you re-enable metal drawing, and then check the “throttle mouse events” boxes at the bottom, how does it behave then?

This didn't help. In fact, it was pretty much instantly bad.

So far, the only solution is to use the "Disable Optimized Drawing" option.

[Justin]

Thanks -- does the slowdown happen from the get-go at first open, or does it take a while before it kicks in?

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

Thanks -- does the slowdown happen from the get-go at first open, or does it take a while before it kicks in?

Typically it does seem to take anywhere from a few minutes to 20 or 30 minutes before it kicks in.

It may also be related to having two displays connected but I would need to retest that again at this point.

I do know that it happened when I had a DELL for a 2nd display, and also now that I have an Apple Studio Display for my 2nd display.

I can try again going with just one display for now, putting the setting back on, and seeing if the problem comes back.

That could tell us if it's an issue related to two displays.

That said, the two display issue wasn't an issue on the 2019 Intel Mac Pro running Big Sur.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

Thanks -- does the slowdown happen from the get-go at first open, or does it take a while before it kicks in?

I'm gonna go ahead and say that this issue doesn't seem to happen when I'm just using one display.

I changed the Display Updates option back to Automatic and worked with just one display and the issue didn't happen.

I don't think it has too much to do with the type of display because my old DELL monitor was connected via HDMI and the new Apple one connects with Thunderbolt.

My main display (the one where REAPER lives) has been a 55" 4K TV connected via HDMI. It's my secondary display (the one that doesn't involve REAPER) that seems to trigger REAPER slowness.

[Justin]

Hmm can you tell me what REAPER shows in the system Activity Monitor, GPu Usage % tab, when this slowdown is happening and some continuous drawing is hapoening (eg continuous scroll during playback)?

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

Hmm can you tell me what REAPER shows in the system Activity Monitor, GPu Usage % tab, when this slowdown is happening and some continuous drawing is hapoening (eg continuous scroll during playback)?

It was good for awhile last night when I was dialing in a project. I fully quit REAPER last night and now this morning, right when I reopened REAPER it was super slow and jittery.

Let me know if this image helps:

[Justin]

hmm what is that process below REAPER using a good bit of GPU (Flux Anal...)?

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

hmm what is that process below REAPER using a good bit of GPU (Flux Anal...)?

It's this:
https://www.flux.audio/project/flux-analyzer/

For whatever reason, it was never a problem on the Intel Mac Pro, and it doesn't seem to affect WaveLab or iZotope RX.

I only started having this issue when using REAPER on the M2 Mac Pro.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

It's this:
https://www.flux.audio/project/flux-analyzer/

For whatever reason, it was never a problem on the Intel Mac Pro, and it doesn't seem to affect WaveLab or iZotope RX.

I only started having this issue when using REAPER on the M2 Mac Pro.

To help us reproduce, can you confirm whether this issue happens without it running?

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

To help us reproduce, can you confirm whether this issue happens without it running?

Yes, I will double check but I am currently 98% sure that last time I tested, I made sure Pure Analyzer wasn't running to help rule out the influence of any other apps.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

To help us reproduce, can you confirm whether this issue happens without it running?

I just checked and I can 100% confirm that it happens without Flux Pure Analyzer open.

I tried to capture it in a screen shot, but the screen shot doesn't reflect what I was seeing.

For example, if I zoom out fast, the makers and timeline move/shrink but the item sizes were VERY slow to update.

For some reason, I couldn't capture that in a screen shot and my first attempt at capturing it in a Quicktime screen recording also failed.

It seems this issue is more related to having more than one display connected.

[Justin]

Still trying to duplicate this… can you make it occur without any third party plug-ins loaded? If it requires a plug-in, which plug-in(s)?

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

Still trying to duplicate this… can you make it occur without any third party plug-ins loaded? If it requires a plug-in, which plug-in(s)?

I can try removing all plugins today and attempt to reproduce but since it happens even when setting up a project (very minimal plugins), or later in a project when all plugins are set to "Offline", it's likely not plugin related.

Have you been testing with two displays? That's what really triggers it here.

My new project template includes Goodhertz Good Dither on one of the tracks, JS: Volume Adjustment on another track, and then TC Clarity M followed by DMG Limitless in the Monitor FX section. The Monitor FX are of course always running.

This is my latest REAPER Configuration if that helps:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1pgmaes81a...ConfigZip?dl=1

[Justin]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

I can try removing all plugins today and attempt to reproduce but since it happens even when setting up a project (very minimal plugins), or later in a project when all plugins are set to "Offline", it's likely not plugin related.

Have you been testing with two displays? That's what really triggers it here.

My new project template includes Goodhertz Good Dither on one of the tracks, JS: Volume Adjustment on another track, and then TC Clarity M followed by DMG Limitless in the Monitor FX section. The Monitor FX are of course always running.

This is my latest REAPER Configuration if that helps:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1pgmaes81a...ConfigZip?dl=1

Yeah testing on a M2 w/ Ventura and two displays. If you can narrow those plug-ins down that would help. In general if the UI has never been displayed it is less likely to affect things...

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

In general if the UI has never been displayed it is less likely to affect things...

Will do and I also meant to mention that in these cases, the plugin UI would not be displayed. It easily happens when no plugin windows are open.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

Will do and I also meant to mention that in these cases, the plugin UI would not be displayed. It easily happens when no plugin windows are open.

...though if they were opened and then closed, they could still affect things.

Anyway hmmm so frustrating to try to reproduce. :/

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

...though if they were opened and then closed, they could still affect things.

Anyway hmmm so frustrating to try to reproduce. :/

Thanks for looking. I know I have a solution but it's strange that the recommended setting is causing the issue and wouldn't want to get to a point where there is no workaround either.

Since this can happen during session setup, I can say that it's likely the GUI of the plugins were never opened.

I'll be able to do some testing today too.

The CONFIG file I linked above contains only one RPP template file which is what all my projects are created from if that helps.

[Justin]

Found a possible (long shot) bug in our code, today's +dev build will have a (possible) fix...

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

Found a possible (long shot) bug in our code, today's +dev build will have a (possible) fix...

Thanks. I'll watch for it, install it, and flip the setting back to recommended and see fi that solves it.

I appreciate you looking into it.

[MRMJP]

Also, now that I think about it. I think I did try from a clean portable install and still got the issue before Dmitri pointed me to the Display Updates setting.

[Justin]

today's build is up, give that a try.

Edit: (after re-reading the documentation once more, I highly doubt this will change anything)

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

today's build is up, give that a try.

Edit: (after re-reading the documentation once more, I highly doubt this will change anything)

Thanks. It's still early but so far, I've had the setting back to "Automatic" and haven't experienced the issue yet. I have set up a few projects and even let REAPER sit idle for 2 hours while I was away. I just came back and the issue is still gone.

I'll report back after I can do a solid day's work with the setting put back to "Automatic" and we'll see if the issue comes back or not.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

today's build is up, give that a try.

Edit: (after re-reading the documentation once more, I highly doubt this will change anything)

You were correct. After a bit of actual real work, the issue has come back and I have to disable optimized drawing again.

[MRMJP]

@Justin

I had a chance to work in a RPP project that had ZERO plugins running in the project, or Monitor FX.

I decided to put the Display Updates to "Automatic" again to see if I got the issue, to rule out any 3rd party plugins.

At first the issue wasn't there, but then I quit REAPER, opened the project again and the issue was there pretty much right away once I started playing the audio and navigating around.

Overall, the issue seems sightly less extreme using the latest DEV build, but it's still there.

Next time you test, can you try having a longer session with say 30 or 40 minutes of audio on a single track? Maybe 10 or 12 items...basically simulating a basic album mastering session with all the items in-line on one track.

Maybe the length of the session or the number of items spread down the timeline are a factor.

[Justin]

When you get this to duplicate, can you pull your phone out and take a video that shows the screen, and describe what you're doing with the mouse/keyboard/etc, so I can see? And then post that to dropbox/youtube/whatever. I'm still trying to reproduce and maybe there would be some hint in there...

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

When you get this to duplicate, can you pull your phone out and take a video that shows the screen, and describe what you're doing with the mouse/keyboard/etc, so I can see? And then post that to dropbox/youtube/whatever. I'm still trying to reproduce and maybe there would be some hint in there...

Yes. I will try to capture in some way what is happening. I do remember that a screen shot didn't seem to reflect it.

I'm using a 55" 4k Samsung TV as my main display and while I don't have this issue in any other app, and it wasn't an issue on my Intel 2019 Mac Pro, do you think somehow it's the TV/display that is causing the issue?

[Justin]

Probably some M2 Metal driver issue…

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

When you get this to duplicate, can you pull your phone out and take a video that shows the screen, and describe what you're doing with the mouse/keyboard/etc, so I can see? And then post that to dropbox/youtube/whatever. I'm still trying to reproduce and maybe there would be some hint in there...

Hi Justin,

I was able to do an iPhone video recording of the issue. It's not the most extreme case but I think it's enough to show you what's happening with the slow/jittery graphics when zooming and navigating with that setting enabled on the M2 Mac.

Due to some sensitive info in the video I'm going to attempt to DM you the Dropbox link to the video. I suggest downloading the video since the stream from Dropbox can look back and might be hard to see details.

Since I was in the middle of working, I did have RX open and also Flux Pure Analyzer on my 2nd display that is right under the TV (not shown in the video) but I am 99.99999% sure this issue happens with just REAPER open.

The issue does seem to occur when I have two displays connected and goes away when I have just one display.

[Justin]

thanks, got the video, that was helpful. If you can, today's +dev build and see if that helps thanks again!

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

thanks, got the video, that was helpful. If you can, today's +dev build and see if that helps thanks again!

Thanks! I've got today's build installed, the setting turned back on, did a computer restart for good measure, and I'll be working in REAPER a lot today.

I'll report back how it goes later today.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Justin

thanks, got the video, that was helpful. If you can, today's +dev build and see if that helps thanks again!

OK, bad news. The issue was there pretty much right away.

I'll PM you a new video link right now. It's shorter this time