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Old 04-21-2009, 12:06 PM   #1
jonmatifa
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Default Where's the 64bit sticky thread? Right here, that's where

It seems there are a lot of 64bit Reaper questions that keep reappearing here, most of them are all the same, people wondering what the advantages are for 64bit over 32bit, sound card compatibility, plugin compatibility and lame_enc support.

We're going to use this thread as best as we can to try to cover these topics.

What is 64bit anyway?

There's an awful lot to this question, in short, newer processors (Pentium 4/Athlon 64 and up) have added 64bit processing compatibility that expands the 32bit processing instruction set that has been around for the past 20 or so years. In addition to expanding the instruction set itself for the processor, it also allows for a larger amount of RAM to be used. So if you have a 64bit compatible processor, you essentially have the option of running either a 32bit or 64bit operating system. (32bit processing is also referred to as x86, or x86-32 whereas 64bit processing is often referred to as x86-64.)

To add to the confusion, there is also 64bit audio processing. 64bit audio is essentially a higher resolution, and therefore more accurate, than 16bit (found in CD and MP3 formats) and 24bit audio (the common standard to pro audio and HD formats). Programs like Reaper (both the 32bit and 64bit versions) use 64bit audio processing in the mixing engine of the program to enhance the quality of the mix itself as well as the plugins used (where applicable).

When we talk about the 64bit version of Reaper, Windows 64bit, and in this thread in particular, we're talking about CPU processing as in the first paragraph.

What are the advantages of 64bit?

The short answer is, addressing memory beyond ~4GB (a little closer to 3.25GB actually). What this means is, if you bought a computer and have 4GB or more of memory in it, you're going to need a 64bit OS to access all that memory, otherwise, you'll only have the first ~4GB of RAM available (it is technically possible to address more memory in 32bit using PAE, but it isn't supported very well). There are other advantages to 64bit processing as well, certain applications benefit from the expanded instruction set and run more efficiently than their 32bit counterparts.

Now, from what I'm aware, the advantages of 64bit Reaper are much the same. If you want Reaper to take advantage of all the RAM in your system, you need the 64bit version. Also, the 64bit version should also be more efficient in terms of processing power, especially when using your 64bit plugins, though I haven't seen any benchmarks to confirm this.

Should I be using 64bit Reaper?

You don't have to. If you're uncertain about whether or not you should be using 64bit Reaper, then use the 32bit version. Especially if you have a collection of plugins you really like to use (apart from just the Cockos plugins), though that's less of an issue now thanks to the built in "bridge" that Cockos has developed for Reaper that allows 32bit plugins to operate within the 64bit version of Reaper. If you haven't chosen which version of Windows to purchase/install yet and you're thinking about 64bit, take into consideration drivers for your hardware, your sound card in particular. Drivers for a 64bit operating system have to be 64bit, even if you're running the 32bit version of Reaper, or any other program for that matter.

Concerning VST plugins and memory allocation between the x86 and 64bit versions of Reaper, this diagram may be helpful,


You can install both versions of Reaper, side by side, on a single 64bit system just fine. Your license key will be valid for both copies as well. So if you're curious about running 64bit, go ahead and give it a try, you've got nothing to loose.

Is there a 64bit version of the Lame_enc.dll?

Yes there is, I've compiled a 64bit version of lame_enc.dll, which has been generally successful. It is attached to this post, click here to download it. There is also a version available here, I haven't tested this one myself, but looks like it may be a more compatible build.

What are your questions about 64bit, and the 64bit version of Reaper?

This thread is brand new, and I probably said some things that were wrong here and haven't answered all the questions you might have, so feedback is welcomed and I'll do my best to edit this and make corrections as needed.
Attached Files
File Type: zip lame_enc64.zip (250.5 KB, 7336 views)
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Old 04-25-2009, 05:23 PM   #2
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Perhaps it would be useful to mention that 64 bit executables don't have anything to do with 64 bit floating point audio processing? There's one common source of confusion for people.

64 bit floating point processing can happen inside the host app (like Reaper) and plugins independent of the CPU and OS being 64 bit instruction set capable.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:27 AM   #3
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I´ve noted some issues with ram use under reaper x64.

the show performace meter shows less ram used than x32, but system free seems to be crazy...

I´m under vista x64, i7 and 6Gb ram, there is no problem of that, but the same project under reaper x32 or x64 doesn´t shows correct performance.

anyways I use actually reaper x32 under vista x64 because the vst x32 are incompatible with.

as I said before, there is a guy trying to make a bridge to translate vsts x32 in x64 sequencers
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=244999

but not works fine...there are a lot of problems with some vsts like the own bridge of cubase or sonar for x32 vsts under x64 versions.

I don´t know nothing about programing, but maybe there would be a good way for reaper if includes a bridge to that...
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Old 06-07-2009, 07:31 AM   #4
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Default Melodyne

I purchased and downloaded the 64bit version of Reaper and I was trying to use the Melodyne plugin with it. I've gotten one response from their technical support and the tech mentioned that it wasn't designed for 64bit operation.

Would it harm anything to delete the 64bit Reaper and replace it with the 32bit Reaper? Can that be done under the same license?
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Old 06-07-2009, 07:42 AM   #5
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You can install both the x64 and x86 versions of Reaper on the same machine.
Both accept the license key file, so technically it's possible to use the same license key.

If however that is intended/legally correct, I wouldn't know, but I suspect yes...?
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Old 06-07-2009, 07:44 AM   #6
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Thanks for that info!
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:03 AM   #7
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your key is good for any flavour of Reaper. PC/MACi/MACppc/x64/Wine
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:39 AM   #8
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Default List of 64 bit plug-ins that run in Reaper

What 64 bit plug-ins are available and do they run in the 64 bit version of Reaper?

This should be a growing list as time passes.
I alone don't know about all the available plug-ins, so please send me a message or reply so I can extend this list.

So far known to me, these companies released 64 bit flavors of their plug-ins.

www.stillwellaudio.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
There are x64 builds of Olga, Tin Man, Schope, and Bitter, and the rest is en route.
And CMX is also available as 64 bit.
If these plugs don't run in Reaper x64, forget about the rest.


www.spectrasonics.net

I know that Stylus RMX is also available as a 64 bit plug-in.
I got it to run in Reaper x64.


www.synapse-audio.com/

Toxic (1.4x more performance)
Hydra (1.7x more performance)
Scorpion (1.2x more performance)
Plucked String (1.3x more performance)
Poly-850 (1.8x more performance)
(copied from the site, including performance improvements over 32 bit versions)

NOTE: On the site there is a remark that the 64 bit versions were tested in several hosts, but Reaper x64 is not mentioned. Someone can confirm they work in Reaper?


http://www.voxengo.com/downloads/?so...ate&platform=5
Too many to list here, so check them out.
Please do reply with your experiences and these plugs.


jstuff.wordpress.com/ipc-midi/ and jstuff.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/mymidiplugins/

IPC-Midi is a plugin (32 and 64 bit) to send and receive midi
and midi plugins is a nice set of midi utilities.

NOTE: J released the jbridge, a utility to use 32 bit plugins in a x64 host! (jstuff.wordpress.com/jbridge/)


http://www.liquidsonics.com/
Released 64 bit plug-ins as well... not tested yet.

Would be great if someone can confirm these plugs run in Reaper.

so far ...
(last update: 2009, july, 1st)
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Old 06-20-2009, 06:54 AM   #9
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Hello. Just downloaded latest versions of reaper.
And I got a little problem.)
Reaper x64 cannot recognize my VST plugins.
But reaper x86 do it well.
VST path in both versions configured equally and folder rescan i did too.
My system is windows7 х64.
I got an idea about it - maybe all vst plugins must be 64bit versions?

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Old 06-20-2009, 06:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mental View Post
I got an idea about it - maybe all vst plugins must be 64bit versions?
Absolutely. 64 bit executables can't load 32 bit DLLs.
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Old 06-20-2009, 07:08 AM   #11
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Thank you.
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Old 06-20-2009, 07:16 AM   #12
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added voxengo and liquidsonics
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:55 AM   #13
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Default UAD-2 no go in 64bit

I have Windows XP 64 bit running on my studio and I have the UAD-2 plugins. I was excited to finally download and try the 64 bit Reaper. I checked with uaudio techs to ask about 64 bit compatibility. They claim they refuse to support Reaper as a DAW. Hmmmm, they won't explain why. But ensured me the UAD drivers were 64 bit compatible. But Reaper 64 will not recognize them. I installed the 32 bit Reaper and bingo! There were the UAD plugins. I wrote back to uaudio tech and explained the situation. All they would reply with is... we don't support Reaper... Grrrrrr!

So I guess the UAD-2 plugins are not 64 bit compatible...
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Old 07-15-2009, 05:33 PM   #14
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I've been using WinX64 with ReaperX64 for a year now and running Reaper 32bit as a host for my 32bit plugins, routed through Reaper X64 using the Reaper ASIO driver. It works well.

I thought it might be worth mentioning Jbridge.
Jbridge is mentioned elsewhere on the forum. It is a 3rd party bridge which will allow (most) 32bit plugs to run in a 64bit environment, so it is possible without major hastle to keep your existing plugins.

I think Jbridge costs $12 or thereabouts. updates are provided free.
A lovely piece of software.
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:21 PM   #15
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So if I instll 64 bit Vista I can install 32 bit Reaper and use all my 32 bit plug-ins ... and take advantage of the extra RAM, or no?

I'm not clear if the extra RAM is dependent on the OS or the application too.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megablahblah View Post
So if I instll 64 bit Vista I can install 32 bit Reaper and use all my 32 bit plug-ins ... and take advantage of the extra RAM, or no?

I'm not clear if the extra RAM is dependent on the OS or the application too.
It's slightly complicated all in all, but under no circumstances a 32 bit app can use more than 4GB of memory.(*) If a 32 bit app can use even that depends on some factors, such as the application itself supporting it. Many legacy apps are limited to 2GB of RAM. And that goes for plugins too. So even if your main app, say Reaper, would support up to 4GB of RAM in 32 bit, there might be plugins that would get confused (ie, probably just crash) when they find themselves in a 32 bit process with 4GB of available RAM.

(*) Technically that might not be entirely true, but it's of no concern in this case. Audio apps would not want to use the OS supported mechanisms to access memory over the 32 bit limit, as it's slow and complicated.
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Old 08-17-2009, 04:03 PM   #17
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there was a really good diagram that should be edited into the first post that explained things kinda graphically.

anyone remember that?
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
there was a really good diagram that should be edited into the first post that explained things kinda graphically.

anyone remember that?
You mean this?
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=82



*UPDATED*
Reaper has now a plugin bridge function
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiKo View Post
yup. thanks!
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:34 AM   #20
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Thanks for the graphic, its been edited into the first post as suggested

Actually, come to think of it, I have a question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios
It's slightly complicated all in all, but under no circumstances a 32 bit app can use more than 4GB of memory.(*) If a 32 bit app can use even that depends on some factors, such as the application itself supporting it. Many legacy apps are limited to 2GB of RAM. And that goes for plugins too. So even if your main app, say Reaper, would support up to 4GB of RAM in 32 bit, there might be plugins that would get confused (ie, probably just crash) when they find themselves in a 32 bit process with 4GB of available RAM.
So lets say you have a system with 8GB of RAM and a 64bit operating system. You're running a bunch of apps all at the same time, some 32 bit, some 64 bit. Are all of the 32 bit programs going to be accessing the same ~4GB chunk of RAM with each other, or will they take whatever RAM is available, ~4GB at a time for each program? Thus effectively making use of the extra available RAM, though not entirely in the same process. Im going to guess no, but maybe operating systems are smarted than I think they are?
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:33 AM   #21
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Ok, did search, could not find; are ALL included Reaper plugings X64 compatible? Reatune, Reafir, Reacomp, Reavioli..?
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Old 08-24-2009, 10:01 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unox View Post
Ok, did search, could not find; are ALL included Reaper plugings X64 compatible? Reatune, Reafir, Reacomp, Reavioli..?


Reavioli?
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Old 08-24-2009, 10:24 AM   #23
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OK, so running Reaper 32-bit in a 64-bit OS environment (XP, Vista or even w7) is OK, as long as you have 64-bit deivce drivers.

However, do the plugin installers (designed for 32-bit OS) work correctly when run in 64-bit OS? I vaguely recall seeing somewhere that some NI product installers would not run wel (or even at all) within a 64-bit OS. Or am I dreaming?
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:26 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiKo View Post


Reavioli?
All rea/pitch/tune-codecs are 64 bit compatible? Great!

..and Reavioli is in 3.2. Or it should be.
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:27 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
OK, so running Reaper 32-bit in a 64-bit OS environment (XP, Vista or even w7) is OK, as long as you have 64-bit deivce drivers.

However, do the plugin installers (designed for 32-bit OS) work correctly when run in 64-bit OS? I vaguely recall seeing somewhere that some NI product installers would not run wel (or even at all) within a 64-bit OS. Or am I dreaming?
Third-parties should be native 64. I was wondering if the included batch were all native 64.
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
However, do the plugin installers (designed for 32-bit OS) work correctly when run in 64-bit OS? I vaguely recall seeing somewhere that some NI product installers would not run wel (or even at all) within a 64-bit OS. Or am I dreaming?
If there's some convoluted installation/copy protection method involved (NI being a good bet they have such installers), 32 bit installer executables might fail when run on 64 bit OS.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:46 PM   #27
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Which version of Windows 7 64bit would be the best choice for a DAW, Standard, Professional or Ultimate?
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:49 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
If there's some convoluted installation/copy protection method involved (NI being a good bet they have such installers), 32 bit installer executables might fail when run on 64 bit OS.
I think there are seperate program files for 32 and 64 bit apps. I doubt I will make the move until all of my essential VST instruments and effects are 64 bit. I am not exactly hurting for more horsepower so I have no need to rush.
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:54 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Which version of Windows 7 64bit would be the best choice for a DAW, Standard, Professional or Ultimate?
Unless you are using network stuff...Home Premium is best (i.e. less bloated).
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:43 PM   #30
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Well, all windows versions are basically the same in the core. Some versions have more limits (connection, processor usage, etc) and the most full featured (Ultimate) can be trimmed down to have less bloat floating around.

In the end, I go for Ultimate, as I don't like to get 'not supported by this edition' messages.

YMMV
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:50 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Which version of Windows 7 64bit would be the best choice for a DAW, Standard, Professional or Ultimate?
any of those probably have no performance difference whatsoever.

but you probably only need Standard.
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Old 08-25-2009, 12:37 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
any of those probably have no performance difference whatsoever.

but you probably only need Standard.
For a DAW I would recommend Professional, as it comes with XP compatibility mode, might be needed to install/run some apps you're grown to use.

Anyway, here's the editions:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...s/default.aspx
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Old 08-25-2009, 12:56 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiKo View Post
For a DAW I would recommend Professional, as it comes with XP compatibility mode, might be needed to install/run some apps you're grown to use.

Anyway, here's the editions:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...s/default.aspx
eh, i havent had any issues with compatibility with any programs from XP.

but of course, im not saying no one else will.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:03 AM   #34
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On the question of using plugins in Reaper X64, I'm suprised that no-one has yet mentioned that ReaperX64 also supports JS plugin scripting language, so all the JS plugins will work.

I just checked my ReaperX64 Plugin folder. There are 248 plugins in total. 17 Cockos, the rest JS.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:22 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthepipeline View Post
On the question of using plugins in Reaper X64, I'm suprised that no-one has yet mentioned that ReaperX64 also supports JS plugin scripting language, so all the JS plugins will work.
The really shocking thing is that JS also works on the Mac OS-X, so you can have any JS plugins working crossplatform...
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:44 AM   #36
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On ProTools, there are measurable differences between PTLE and PTHD.

http://dawsession.com/media/48_Bit_Mixer_26688.pdf

http://dawsession.com/media/Mixing_in_the_Box_26689.pdf

This higher precision in HD systems can be attributed to the 48bit mixing bus in conjunction with dedicated hardware, which is evidenced by greater stability with high track counts and amounts of information being processed.

Does Reaper also offer increased stability on X64 systems? What kind of hardware requirements are necessary to achieve this? How is this comparable in terms of system precision at higher track counts (and/or greater numbers of plugins)? This could be useful data for achieving system benchmarks.

Last edited by jas; 09-22-2009 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 09-22-2009, 03:32 PM   #37
jonmatifa
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Quote:
On ProTools, there are measurable differences between PTLE and PTHD.

http://dawsession.com/media/48_Bit_Mixer_26688.pdf

http://dawsession.com/media/Mixing_in_the_Box_26689.pdf

This higher precision in HD systems can be attributed to the 48bit mixing bus in conjunction with dedicated hardware, which is evidenced by greater stability with high track counts and amounts of information being processed.

Does Reaper also offer increased stability on X64 systems? What kind of hardware requirements are necessary to achieve this? How is this comparable in terms of system precision at higher track counts (and/or greater numbers of plugins)? This could be useful data for achieving system benchmarks.
Either 32bit (also known as x86) or 64bit versions of Reaper have a 64bit mix bus. Its confusing because 16bit/24bit/32bit/48bit and 64bit are all audio resolution depths, whereas 32bit and 64bit are also CPU instruction set environments. Same terminology, two completely different sets of meaning.

The good news is, if want 48bit depth mixing capability like Pro Tools has, you get 64bits instead with whatever flavor of Reaper you choose, x86, x64, Mac OS-X, etc.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:12 AM   #38
louistse1
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Nevermind, got it to work! Thank you so much!

Last edited by louistse1; 10-26-2009 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:04 AM   #39
rapapar
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what do you use to edit wav in 64bit?
Wavesaur 64 exists?
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:21 PM   #40
caleb82
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@rapapar
Wavosaur x86 (32-Bit) will work fine in Win x64 (64-Bit)
At least version 1.0.5.0 is doing so here...



BTW:
If anyone cares... I am currently running Win7 x64 and have been for some months, since the RTM was out. Coming from XP x86 and the nauseous XP x64 and having to work on the agonizing Vista (in the case of Vista, x86 is no guarantee for stability!) I expected the worst of Win7 ... more colors, more FX, more this and that and BSODs and all the usual flaws that usually fluff up the fun and productivity resting inside computers.
But what can I say... beggar never let me down once. Yet. And I sure hope it stays that way. Finally, Microsoft's overclocked synapses have yielded a stable operating system and I'm glad to say that in moving on from XP I never had to look back once.
On x64 that is, remember. Not x86.
Coded like a brick s...house, just won't crash.

As an environment to work with, Win7 (in disregard of x86 or x64 architecture) is fast, stable (even after months of intense testing and installing and removing... you know the routine) and has a very efficient workflow once you get it tamed.

I decided to stay with 64-bits, without really knowing what that meant. Apart from this "more than 4gig"-thing everybody's excited about.
And I guess it seems natural that in a x64 environment you don't want to worry about lots of effort going to waste for the sake of compatibility and downward-bitted-integration. I'm glad to say that I have not a single device in my machine that wasn't at least written a driver for to work under Vista x64 (which in a personally estimated percentage of 95 will also do its deeds under Win7), so no compatibility issues hiding there.

I got interested in Reaper x64, as it would seem logical that an x64 application should run steadier and more efficient than an application compiled for the -to x64- alien x86 architecture, maybe greatly profit from that and reward me with a whole lotta more plugin instances - or what do I know, "what do we need? ... *more power!*"

The thing that always fluffed my plans up was the un-interoperability of Reaper x64 and x86 plugins. Just couldn't get them to work. Of course.
Now that the Cockos guys have been toying (umm... code-wise! ^^) with the x86-bridging I started listening up again.

Since noone seems to have any figures or charts or numbers, I conducted my own little benchmark. Or well, it's not a real benchmark, more of a little comparison I did to satisfy my curiosity as noone else could do that. But it's conclusive enough for me.

Have a look at these pictures, and hopefully you'll be able to follow:
http://picasaweb.google.de/ryskdsp/R...X64AndBridging

Here's how I did it:

Went and found myself 2 plugins that I feel comfortable with.
For one, the free mono version of the SinusWeb Peak Compressor which I LOVE because it does its job just as it promises and you can insert it practically anywhere (umm... into tracks and stuff! ^^) as it hardly chews at the CPU at all.
And as not the opponent but rather the accomplice I chose Cockos ReaXcomp, as it's in contrary a relatively complex tool and yet also surprisingly CPU efficient.
Quickly shoved some samples onto two tracks of an empty project and off we go.

I made sure that all instances of the PeakCompressor had the same settings while testing, just cranked the faders until it showed a rise in CPU hunger. As you can/might notice, the gain reduction is actually doing quite a hard job.
The same for all instances of the ReaXcomp, yanked it into some senseless but demanding function and watched it breathe.

(Of course, the parameter settings used in the first hosted instance were exported to a patch and reloaded into the other instance/s! Be assured: no parameter cheating!)

As the CPU use values are always changing as the track continues, I observed those values for a while to find their "realistic" max and min values and simply made a picture when the average / middle-value was shown.
The PeakCompressor native x86 under Reaper x86 just wouldn't come above 0.7% or 0.8%, so rather not see that value as an average but more of a maximum!

My goal was to prove (to myself) that under Win7 x64 an instance of Reaper x64 with a native x64 plugin would show better performance than an instance of Reaper x64 with a bridged x86 version of the exact same plugin - and that bridging x86 plugins into an instance of Reaper x64 comes with a decrease in performance in comparison to a native x86 version of a plugin inside an instance of Reaper x86.

And from what I observed, that was just the case.

The x86 plugin in Reaper x86 work just fine.
The x64 plugin in Reaper x64 work just fine.
But both x86 plugins in Reaper x64 (bridged) were hungrier for CPU than their native companions. (EDIT: or them in their native environment)

Uhm, yeah: I know that 1.15% bridged from x86 to x64 compared to 0.75% in native x86 is not a hell of a lot of a difference - but don't forget, that's over 53% of "hot air" wasted in just 1 instance.
In, say, a project with 20 instances we'd suddenly be talking about ~23% instead of 15%, and thats a respectable amount... nearly 8% of CPU performance gone to waste on bridging... That's 10+ more instances of the PeakCompressor...




PS:
some kind of disclaimer, I guess...
These are MY results, made on MY machine with plugins I use and collected in a way I thought would be appropriate.
Maybe other testing processes and other plugins will result in other ... results.


PPS:
But for all I care ... I'd like plugin development to concentrate on x64 architecture rather than VST3... fluff that, any decent host can handle more than 2 channels per track and any decent plugin can handle more that 2 in- and outputs... so what's the magic with sidechaining... it's just... morer CPU munch...


PPPS:
WOW.
You trying to tell me you read all this?
Gad, you should definitely go out, find some friends...


In the words of George Carlin: "Just wanting to share".
Or in the words of my ol' man: "Hope it chokes you".


Greetings from icy Munich
-Rob-

Last edited by caleb82; 11-06-2009 at 07:44 PM.
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