Old 12-18-2006, 11:04 AM   #1
Youn
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Default [IID#2966] Tempo Marker "Stretch"

meaning, for example... you grab a tempo marker while holding down Shift and the tempo marker before it will also be modified so that you can essientially "Stretch" the grid.

I try to never record audio to a click, but rather like to make a tempo grid afterwards to follow, and this would speed up the process alot and make for a much higher degree of accuracy.

p.s. If we could fine tune envelope up/down I might not need this feature, and frankly the envelope editing is more important for me for volume/pan/effects anyways, so...
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Old 12-18-2006, 03:16 PM   #2
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interesting idea really.
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:46 PM   #3
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Yeah, this is interesting. Sometimes I really want something free time but don't bother because it's too much hassle to sync other parts later. Even when everything is played, a grid that fit the free time would definetely help editing.
Would this feature be a first?

+1
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Old 12-20-2006, 01:03 AM   #4
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*** HUGE PLUS ONE HERE ***

Apart from acid support, this is one feature that would be indispensable for working 'live' recordings. I had made a similar suggestion but think the idea of stretching the grid to line up with kicks or snares is a great one... plus it will allow for a smooth free flowing transition of tempo - possibly easier to implement & more user friendly, kinda like a manual beatmapper!

nice 1 Youn
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Old 12-20-2006, 01:11 AM   #5
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Man this is yet another one I have been yapping onto Sony about for years. Incredibly simple and useful function for any of us who use the grid all the time.

When using the above function any tempo markers after the tempo marker being modified should stick to the same point on the audio (IE have their tempos adjusted as well). Otherwise moving one tempo marker in this way will move all the tempo markers after it out of position.

Also, as well as inserting and then moving tempo markers the process could be streamlined even further.

You could hold down a modifier key and then click and drag any point on the ruler to stretch it to match any point on the audio. Once you let go the previous tempo marker would have had it’s tempo adjusted and a new tempo marker would be automatically inserted to lock the grid to point you clicked on to the audio.

Using those together would make matching the grid to the audio a piece of cake.

+1 +2 and +3
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:41 AM   #6
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I would actually use midi if this worked.

+1
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Old 12-25-2006, 04:38 PM   #7
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+1 for the "stretchable tempo markers"

Or a way to drag the grid bars themselves, especially in the piano roll

...and to quickly stick the nearest grid line to the start or end of a selected midi note.

...or to the nearest selected audio peak (accent).


I would use a separate tool for this manipulation, but from what I have learned here, unfortunately some very powerful figures hate ALL tools, even though done the Logic way [ESC then press number or click with the desired mouse button] they would be superfast and allow more shortcuts with less clutter ;-).

In fact I beg the programming world for a feature allowing to easily USE tracks recorded in free time (audio or midi) to STRETCH THE MASTER TEMPO GRID or to QUANTIZE other tracks. Lets see... a window where the wave is shown together with the automatically found accents (ReCycle-style), and you can drag any accent to move the master tempo grid or to correct the quantization pattern for other tracks - all in real time ! Wow !
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Old 12-25-2006, 04:42 PM   #8
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yeah pretty nice... free time grid...

innovative

you make your own grid to follow the music and the midi follows.
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Old 12-25-2006, 05:28 PM   #9
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+1 This would allow you to add scratch MIDI drums to a scratch acoustic/vocal track. Sometime, the best take is the scratch take...

Great suggestion, Youn.


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Old 12-25-2006, 06:09 PM   #10
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what about a way to map the grid to a certain track's transients, or something like beatmapper as well?

would be a huge help for some duo projects i am doing right now.
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Old 12-25-2006, 06:49 PM   #11
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Yup, that's what we are exactly talking about (quote: "a window where the wave is shown together with the automatically found accents (ReCycle-style)" ... and you may modify the marked points manually, too :-) )

This "marker map" taken from any recording (midi or audio) would affect the grid, or could be used as a quantization template.

And with many maps we could beat-match tracks, getting ANY recording in time with others, using any clip as a master (source) or as a slave.

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Old 12-25-2006, 07:00 PM   #12
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One more thought:

maybe this feature would (at least to some extent) SAVE the soul in the new pop music we hear on the radio ?

Have you noticed, how the tools we used totally determined the output ? Today, virtually all songs use a metronome and one tempo, simply because it's easier to fit/copy audio parts between bars so the clips HAVE TO BE recorded in one tempo and quantized ! Argh !

So the true name of the feature could be: REVERSE QUANTIZE - not quantizing the notes to the rigid grid, but quantizing the grid itself, or conforming quantized notes from a few other tracks to one free-time track that sounds "just perfect" and includes all the needed tempo information (or we may even combine the grid or the groove template from a few takes!).
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Old 12-25-2006, 07:14 PM   #13
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perhaps a way to drop markers at transients and then stretch the grid to it --

or, make your own markers
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Old 12-26-2006, 03:15 AM   #14
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This one excites me if it can be done!
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Old 12-26-2006, 04:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
perhaps a way to drop markers at transients and then stretch the grid to it --

or, make your own markers
That is almost exactly the functionality I was talking about; the transient detection in 1.55 brings this even a step closer.

You could tab to the transient and then hold down a modifier key and drag the grid to the transient point.

That is extremely straightforward to both program and use.
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Old 12-26-2006, 04:27 AM   #16
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...Hopefully the transient thing is a sign that the big J man might be about to tackle the ACID looping stuff.

If he does I might be just about ready to jump ship...
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Old 12-26-2006, 05:38 AM   #17
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+1 11111111111111111111.............
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Old 12-26-2006, 05:49 PM   #18
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Default the grid-detection/quantizing in a nutshell :-)

To sum things up:

We have a tempo track with multiple "grid takes" (one take per each clip). So every clip could have its own grid and we could switch between grids (with immediate quantization of all tracks done by grid-matching).

Any clip could be a MASTER, SLAVE or TIME LOCKED i.e. have its own independent tempo and grid (default = SLAVE).

When a clip is set as a MASTER GRID, we see it's grid as the master grid and a "ghost" of that sequence is shown in the tempo/meter track.

Of course the grid would be detected automatically like in ReCycle, then the "grid markers" could be modified manually at a selected zooming level (showing smaller rhythmic values in the grid). I propose to do the detection either in the piano roll / on the audio clip when zoomed in or on the tempo track "ghosts".


If two MASTER GRID clips are overlayed, there should be a menu in the tempo track (when right-clicking the ghosts) to show:

A) which one is more important ("stronger") in the overlayed part
B) if the second clip is used where there's no grid information (i.e. no rhythm) in the "stronger" clip,
C) or if they "morph/crossfade" from one -> the other to make a smooth transition between two freetime clips.

There should be a user selectable "%" of how much a MASTER clip is affecting the other clips (SLAVES), and/or how strong the other grids (individual SLAVES) are warped/bent/quantized - whatever we call it :-) Again - Logic Audio quantizing is exemplary (click P to see parameters and play with them).

Let's discuss now if quantizing and the grid detection-editing should be fused into one feature, or if it would be more convenient to sometimes see BOTH the "metronome lines" AND the "grid markers" overlayed (with a handy keycommand to sync the metronome with an existing event - a grid marker or a note, or to detect the tempo using selected events or loop lenght.
In Logic, tempo detection was done by selecting a loop or a clip, selecting how many bars it is supposed to be, and pressing "T"; lovely, it only missed using grid points or midi notes to estimate average tempo).

Ta-dam :-)

Last edited by sebas777; 12-26-2006 at 05:51 PM. Reason: small one...
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Old 01-02-2007, 07:26 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebas777 View Post
To sum things up:
...
I'm glad some other people find this potentially usefull. I really really don't like recording to a click for most music, and going back to add MIDI is tons easier if we can more quickly/accurately create these tempo maps.
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Old 01-02-2007, 12:19 PM   #20
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If possible to do, this would take Reaper to a new level!


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Old 01-02-2007, 01:02 PM   #21
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Are you guys saying that this will allow me to create a track(s) and adjust the tempo to what ever tempo I want at any location on that track(s)using a grid system? I am new to this so it sounds simple and a little complicated at the same time.
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Old 01-02-2007, 03:48 PM   #22
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Here's an animation illustrating my FR... the hand is the mouse cursor clicking and draging the marker (while holding down some key combo like Shift+Ctrl for example)...

[img]http://img525.**************/img525/4827/tempopq5.gif[/img]
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Old 01-02-2007, 03:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Youn View Post
Here's an animation illustrating my FR... the hand is the mouse cursor clicking and draging the marker (while holding down some key combo like Shift+Ctrl for example)...

[img]http://img525.**************/img525/4827/tempopq5.gif[/img]

very cool way to describe your FR. Love it.
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Youn View Post
Here's an animation illustrating my FR... the hand is the mouse cursor clicking and draging the marker (while holding down some key combo like Shift+Ctrl for example)...
THIS is very clever
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:21 PM   #25
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The animation cleared it up for me. Would it work if you were able to highlight the section of the track(s) you want to apply the tempo change, quantize, pan and other fx. Then right click that section to bring up a drop down window with those options along with markers that apply? Or am I still missing the concept?
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:56 PM   #26
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One of the most important features in the music universe !

Sadly it's still missing from most available sequencers (and we hear the results on the radio...). Please, free the music !

Personally I'd like to have a simple tool, that would be used in any window without adding any special markers or using modifier keys:

1) this tool would just click+drag any selected grid line in either direction, as if you move notes or clips.

2) A few additional keycommands would be handy to AUTOMATICALLY "SNAP" such a line to the start or end of a selected note, audio accent or other item.

3) And a SEPARATE grid would be available for EACH TRACK or CLIP (to beatmatch them by setting any clip into MASTER or SLAVE grid modes - thus conforming their tempo to controlled by the MASTER clip).

4) And of course it would be a wonderful bonus feature, if we could select some passage or clip, select on the time ruler how long it is and MAKE SELECTED ITEMS INTO A GRID FOR SELECTED CYCLE MEASURES (but with accents added, moved with a real time preview like we use a ReCycle - until we're satisfied and confirm it's well done )!

Last edited by sebas777; 01-02-2007 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 01-02-2007, 06:25 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Youn View Post
Here's an animation illustrating my FR... the hand is the mouse cursor clicking and draging the marker (while holding down some key combo like Shift+Ctrl for example)...

[img]http://img525.**************/img525/4827/tempopq5.gif[/img]

Great animation, and an awesome feature.

This isn't like Live's Warp markers where you stretch the track to the grid, is it? This is just fitting a grid to the unchanged track I hope.
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Old 01-02-2007, 06:47 PM   #28
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It could work this way or the other:

+ it would just move the grid (calculating new tempo events), maybe even SNAPPING the marker to the nearest audio peak or midi to make it easier, too (wow, without need for keycommands !),

+ ...in the same time every clip/track in the GRID SLAVE mode would follow the new grid point, so they would conform their tempo like when quantizing or time-stretching/beatmatching (if you have a slower machine or too many tracks, you could turn this option off and do it only once, after you finish your editing of the grid in the clip used as a MASTER).

+ each clip could have its own grid (to beat-match every possible timing differences between tracks, or for unusual creative use like getting one track completely out of sync for a moment, then speed up to catch the sync point).

Last edited by sebas777; 01-02-2007 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 01-02-2007, 11:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Youn View Post
Here's an animation illustrating my FR... the hand is the mouse cursor clicking and draging the marker (while holding down some key combo like Shift+Ctrl for example)...

[img]http://img525.**************/img525/4827/tempopq5.gif[/img]
This is basically the same functionality as I am talking about with one exception.

Instead of having to manually place a new marker on the on the grid, why not get Reaper to do it for you automatically?

...So this way all you have to do is hold down the modifier key and click and drag on the grid until it lines up with the audio.

When you let go of the mouse the tempo marker is automatically created at the point on the grid you clicked on and the necessary tempo adjustments are made so it also lines up with the audio.

Nothing could be simpler.
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Old 01-03-2007, 01:02 AM   #30
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tab to transient could help in this instance, no?
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Old 01-03-2007, 01:41 AM   #31
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Quote:
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tab to transient could help in this instance, no?
Sure. You could tab to the transient that you want to be beat 1, and then all you’d have to do would be to [Alt] drag beat 1 on the grid to the cursor position (assuming that Alt was the modifier key). All the usual snapping rules could apply.

Man that would be awesome workflow.
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Old 01-03-2007, 01:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
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Sure. You could tab to the transient that you want to be beat 1, and then all you’d have to do would be to [Alt] drag beat 1 on the grid to the cursor position (assuming that Alt was the modifier key). All the usual snapping rules could apply.

Man that would be awesome workflow.

you could map out an entire song, that had no quantization -- and then record midi over it, sequence a beat, etc...

you could have pauses that dont have to conform to a grid -- for instance, this song i did once, a neko case cover called "favorite" I played drums on it (horribly, im not a drummer) because there were pauses that we didnt want to put to a metronome -- we wanted them natural. IF we had this feature when we recorded this last year, we could have just recorded it as is, and then put BFD over it

(link to the song if interested: http://www.filelodge.com/files/hdd6/...vorite3_eq.mp3 )

from my msn space
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Old 01-03-2007, 09:07 AM   #33
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I confess to salivating every time I think about this one. It would fit the way I would prefer to work perfectly!

Fingers crossed
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Old 01-03-2007, 04:51 PM   #34
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Yes - the first time I've heard about sequencing (when studying classical piano) I thought every DAW had this feature. Every professional musician can't use his skills in full without it...

...Ah, so to say, we were SILENT LAMBS through all these years It's 21 century, time to free the enslaved beats !

Last edited by sebas777; 01-30-2007 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 01-03-2007, 05:08 PM   #35
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Being able to move a tempo marker as described would be useful. But its pretty easy to map out the tempo already. Here is a workaround that will allow you to map out the tempo for a preexisting track:

1) Place a marker (or a tempo marker) every four beats.

2) Select the four-beat area between two markers and press Alt-Shift-C.

3) Repeat step 2 until the song is mapped.


Sections less than or longer than four-beats can be handled by inserting the markers as if it was four beats then retroactively entiring the correctly calculated tempo manually. Eg, select eight-beats, Alt-Shift-C, edit the tempo marker and double the value.

Cheers,

Randy

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Old 01-03-2007, 06:44 PM   #36
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Thank you for this nice tip !
Yet I can't wait to see the complete functionality :

A) How about dragging the grid lines themselves, within any window, allowing them to snap to the objects (transients, midi on-off, clip start-end, ...and markers). Available both in the piano roll and in the main arrange, available for current Q/Grid/Zoom settings.

B) Then the thing is being able to do it semi-automatically like in ReCycle - with just one real-time-updated sensitivity slider or with some more elaborated parameter box similar to live quantizing (editing of the parameters immediately updated WYSIWYG), so you are only correcting/tweaking a few unperfect points, not creating the map from scratch.

C) And then comes the multiple grids part, its a key feature ! - with a MASTER clip and SLAVEs to follow this selected clip (in the region). Or OFF to let the track/clip/midi clip play completely out of sync using it's own grid.

Yes, it can be done, and many big sequencers have some tempo commands allowing to rebar/extract grooves etc. But they take so much time - imagine a song played in free time - how many hours it takes to fit it, and to correct a few instruments in it ? Or to match a few tracks recorded with different feel, in different tempos, with different tempo changes in each ?

When using Studio Vision, Cakewalk, Sibelius or Logic, I always wanted to use these kind of features, but their results always failed miserably - why ?

Because it didn't included multiple grids,
was not semi-automatic, not ReCycle-like, not WYSIWYG,
not working in the song context (usually a separate editing window or special markers),

so you had to UNDO many times to finally find "the spot" and it worked only for this one track,

...instead of using a simple algorithm with a few basic parameters (sensitivity, offset, base grid) and tweak the results.

I hope the Reaper will understand us users and will cure the problems.

PS. Another clever option would be to be able to toggle either

- view a sequence "as quantized", so the piano roll notes/audio accents would be evenly spaced (like when reading a traditional score) with the Song Position Line slowing down or going faster on tempo changes.

- view it with tempo changes displayed as grid lines positioned wider or closer, with SPL moving evenly (this is better for recording new tracks in sync with free-time tracks).
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:19 PM   #37
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Default The "grid edit" vs. "item edit" modes.

The "grid edit" vs. "item edit" modes.

Here's the latest post on editing tempo by moving grid lines.

1) One keycommand to TOGGLE between "grid edit" and "item/note edit"

2) when in grid mode, you can move only grid lines.

3) when in grid mode, if the SNAP is ON, the lines SNAP to
- item start/end borders,
- to note on/off (maybe also in the main arrange, when you see the notes inside a midi clip?),
- to Q-point in any item,
- to markers
- and to audio accents (transients, peaks).

4) you may select any TWO lines, and stretch/compress all the grid lines in between. Let's say, you would use click+ctrl to do this. (You can see how the lines inside stretch, too, WYSIWYG).

5) using another modifier key (shift ?) you may choose between two methods of moving a grid line left or right:
- move only this line
- move also the following lines, relatively (in notation apps it's often called "rebar also the following bars, or leave them as they are?".

6) All clips have their own grid, each clip can be either a MASTER, SLAVE or INDIE (set in it's properties). Slave grids are quantized to any simultaneous active MASTER (beatmatching). Idies override the MASTER.

7) You edit the grid either in the Piano Roll, or in the Arrange - by click-selecting any clip to display its grid. If you do not select any clip, you just modify the Tempo track item (a default master item, being also a container for all the active MASTER grids).

8) When two MASTER tracks overlap, you either "crossfade their values, or move a GRID TRANSITION MARKER between them to set the point, when the MASTER grid is switched to another clip. So one or more clips would be divided into separate parts with this marker.

One procedure, simple click+drag, many practical uses.

Last edited by sebas777; 01-06-2007 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 01-07-2007, 11:00 AM   #38
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Why not instead of Snap to grid options. A simple snap grid to marker with a setting of time. I have been working with a recording as an experiment to see just how accurate the timing would be entering markers live and then seeing how well they loop on themselves as well as cutting and pasting. To my surprise this works extremely well. A little adjustment here and there and it looks like measure lines that Reaper ignores. It should pay attention if I ask it to.

In any case a big YES on any feature that would bring this to Reaper!
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Old 01-10-2007, 04:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
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1) Place a marker (or a tempo marker) every four beats.

2) Select the four-beat area between two markers and press Alt-Shift-C.

3) Repeat step 2 until the song is mapped.
I also just found out that if no tempo marker is at either end of selection, they will be created for you!

Simply, select the next measure mark and drag to snap to previous measure, alt-shift-c... done! Move on to the next!

Wow, this greatly speeds things up... definately don't need this FR now!!!!



ps. also, another way if snapping bugs you: place cursor at next measure (arrows to fine-tine), shift-click on tempo/measure-marker before to create the loop, then alt-shift-c, etc...

Last edited by Youn; 01-10-2007 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 01-10-2007, 07:11 PM   #40
sebas777
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One very cool thing you could do with the "multiple, editable grids" would be:

- you record something in free time
- then auto-find the transients (ReCycle-style) to get a new grid pattern. It would work well, with only a few manual tweaks here and there.
- then you quantize the grid 100%, so it becomes very mechanic...
- ...now you may step record arpeggios and similar patterns
- and finally you come back to the first grid, and in a second the whole song starts to sound very organically !

Or ... you could have a ready, quantized song produced the "old" way, then play a scratch track (bass, melody, some accents from your song), and easily use a grid derived from this track on the whole song.
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