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Old 10-14-2009, 07:12 AM   #1
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Default Modular Display option for FX Window (discussion)

Link to the FR in the Issue Tracker. Please vote here.
Learn more about the Feature Request tracker here

------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver
The idea here is simply to offer a clear graphic picture of plugin connections in the manner of any modular host - mulab, plogue, max, Tracktion's racks etc.

the view would be toggled in and out of from within the fx window.

ideally the pin connections would be editable - plugs could be added to the space etc.

nothing would change in REAPERs functionality: this is strictly an additional interface.
-------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broman
Sounds like a great way to see all the complex routing at a glance. Should probably have the ability to group blocks together and zoom in/out, a bit like Reaktor's interface.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakey.oberon
I have a lot of issues with this, I love the way you can route fx to sends internally in a track, but it isn't immediately obvious what is going where when you come back to the chain later

A comprehensive fx routing window would be amazing
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAS
With so many people voting they would use this it is going to be interesting to see how this goes
I asked for this about two years or so ago and was told that this simply wasn't going to happen by the devs
So i watch this one with hope

NAS
Quote:
Originally Posted by dus7_7o_dus7
The current routings is very hard to follow.

Modular display make it so much clearer for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffos
I'm gonna be insulted but...
... the guy who voted no is me!

Clarification: of course, I'd like something like that too, but as I'm used to design such modular components, I think there's something better to do...
Just an example: why not enlarging this FR ? Imaging you're in a main modular view where you see tracks "as boxes" routing as "links" and where you can drill-down into a track (i.e. double click on a box) and that now you're seeing this FR, i.e. the FX chain as a modular view. Of course you can have recursive "track boxes" (i.e. "track boxes" in "track boxes"): nested folder, etc.. well, many ideas, here!

It does not prevent a native implementation, of course, but I'm actually trying to code that as an extension (when I've some spare time, don't wait for it!). If I fail, which is on the good way, I'll post my ideas as a private FR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwanta
Would it show sends or just FX on one track at a time (lie a Tracktion rack)? Would it allow you to do routing above and beyond the more linear current FX window? (like split signal in 3, apply different FX to each, combine signals together with a mixer type stuff - like energyxt/bidule)
Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver
this request is just to show FX on one track at a time.

Qwanta: The current FX window *does* allow signals to be split, effected differently and recombined as you describe. I think the fact that you have not found this functionality should demonstrate the problem with the current implementation! Also I find it very hard to keep track of what I have set up without a clear visualization.
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Last edited by DarkStar; 10-14-2009 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:36 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
Please post any further discussions over here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=44361

I may well remove the previous posts later to tighten up this thread.
sorry but, why ?
confusion between track routing & pin connections ?

Last edited by Jeffos; 10-14-2009 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:54 AM   #3
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...I think the goal is to keep conversation in the Tracker to a minimum so that the devs don't have to wade through a lot of back and forth.

I think that requests for an expanded FR, ie including track routing, sends, param knobs make perfect sense: but my goal here was just to suggest a relatively simple to implement first step.

The FX wndow already exists - multi channel routing in the FX window (via pins) already exists.

But it is one of the hardest parts of REAPER to understand and the pin diagram is really not an adequate GUI for it.

simple enough to provide another window mode: like the event list in the midi editor.

Expanded requests should certainly follow - but for now I think we should rally around this one. If it is implemented, it will certainly lay the groundwork for a lot of other possibilities.

Last edited by semiquaver; 10-14-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:52 AM   #4
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semiquaver, I agree with all that you said (noise ratio, the "1st step", ..) and I can only acknowlege the need itself.
What bothers me, is that I like to think to FRs as "a whole", I like as larger/opened solutions as possible and that's simply what I wanted to say in the tracker.
I could post remarks like that in many FRs (last one: MIDI tabs that would be covered with "true docking"). I did it in this one 'cause I've got a real experience about that... I knew that it'll probably introduce some confusion (and sorry about that, semiquaver), but I've seen worst polution, really...
And that's also why I would not appreciate my post to be removed from the tracker. Moreover I rarely post there, even when I have something to say.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
Please post any further discussions over here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=44361

I may well remove the previous posts later to tighten up this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffos View Post
sorry but, why ?
confusion between track routing & pin connections ?
Sorry if I was not clear,

I meant only the replies posted to that Issue; all of which I have quoted in the first post of this discussion thread so nothing is lost.
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver View Post
...I think the goal is to keep conversation in the Tracker to a minimum so that the devs don't have to wade through a lot of back and forth.

I think that requests for an expanded FR, ie including track routing, sends, param knobs make perfect sense: but my goal here was just to suggest a relatively simple to implement first step.

The FX wndow already exists - multi channel routing in the FX window (via pins) already exists.

But it is one of the hardest parts of REAPER to understand and the pin diagram is really not an adequate GUI for it.

simple enough to provide another window mode: like the event list in the midi editor.

Expanded requests should certainly follow - but for now I think we should rally around this one. If it is implemented, it will certainly lay the groundwork for a lot of other possibilities.
Good point, gotta start somewhere. And the track sends are more visible anyway.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broman View Post
Good point, gotta start somewhere.
"somewhere", excatly. so let's start in the good place!
but I don't worry for that..

This post was needed 'cause it was obvious: guys!! 42 votes against me now!
I feel alone.
so, let me just let guess why I said "no"...
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:21 PM   #8
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the system doesnt need to be fancy at all, just a pop out expandable grid or something, which shows all the different outputs and the fx chains running in them, that would do me
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:14 AM   #9
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44+ votes for WYSIWYG system
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:06 AM   #10
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I think a modular view ala XT wouldn't take Justin long to knock together (He is a clever bastard)
However i am not entirely convinced he sees the usefulness of this at the moment and in terms of straight up recording maybe he is right
However Reaper is now heavily used by a bunch of synthists and this view would be a major boon to them for quick layering of synths and so on

What i would like to see is a dual system so when you click on a tracks fx chain you would get a modular view of that
If you clicked a global button it would show you not only the track routing but also show blocks that would represent a single tracks FX chains

This would be a killer setup for me personally and i think it would work well for other users too

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Old 10-21-2009, 11:20 AM   #11
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The FX chain would look something like this (optional of course for the oldskool users who dont want it)

Obviously this is just a quick and dirty mock up to get an idea from (I just shrunk the plugins as icons but that is obviously a bling option that is nice but not entirely needed)
I will do what i meant for the global as a mock up next

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Old 10-21-2009, 03:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAS View Post


The FX chain would look something like this (optional of course for the oldskool users who dont want it)

Obviously this is just a quick and dirty mock up to get an idea from (I just shrunk the plugins as icons but that is obviously a bling option that is nice but not entirely needed)
I will do what i meant for the global as a mock up next

NAS
this is a good start!
it can open so many doors in the future!
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Old 10-22-2009, 03:31 AM   #13
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Yeah i think at some stage they need to implement something like this simply because if the tracker is anything to go by its one of the most wanted features hehehe

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Old 10-22-2009, 06:11 AM   #14
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Just a note that this earlier FR (which had 55 votes) is essentially a more specific duplicate: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1018

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labyrinth
I think something was confused along the way, but I want to clarify that I was proposing a way to route on plug-in to another, not mixing the plug-in's own routing and plug-in to plug-in routing.

I think that the plug-in's own routing is handled quite nicely as it is now within the Plug-in pin connector window.

Here's a mock
[img]http://img4.**************/img4/3705/clarity.png[/img]

I added the 'io' buttons so users could open a specific plug-ins internal routing (plug-in pin connector) from this routing window or access all plug-in routing from the plug-in pin connector (nice I thought).

Although it would be nice to route a plug-in's entire routing path (like in the Plug-in pin connector) from the fx to fx routing window (left) it will make things way too confusing and hard to trace a routing path easily.
Note, I don't think this particular mockup is workable, it's not at all clear what the display would look like if you had track channels 3+4 routed to ReaComp's input pins 1+2 for example.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:18 AM   #15
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Ah ha

I was trying to reply to the other new thread, but it got whacked.

Anyway, my derail of that Issue ( http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1018 ) would still work, I think:
[img]http://img190.**************/img190/2235/r313dstrackchannels.png[/img]
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAS View Post


The FX chain would look something like this (optional of course for the oldskool users who dont want it)

Obviously this is just a quick and dirty mock up to get an idea from (I just shrunk the plugins as icons but that is obviously a bling option that is nice but not entirely needed)
I will do what i meant for the global as a mock up next

NAS

This Traktion/Logic-environment-Style is good imho. As optional add on.
I like this one more than the boring, and unreadable gridbox-in and out-thing (the reason I never use the routing matrix. it takes too long to figure out where I am and where have to look at.)
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:20 PM   #17
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I can't stand matrix routing like that
I never use the matrix as is now

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Old 10-22-2009, 04:21 PM   #18
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Default Modular Display option for FX Window discussion

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Old 10-22-2009, 05:24 PM   #19
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I'm with NAS - I can't readily parse the matrix routing style - find it practically unusable.

The Tracktion/Plogue/Max style is much more intuitive, and allows interesting extensions like having tweakable parameters appear in the workspace - packing/unpacking/reusing patches - including descriptive notes etc etc. Dragging patchcords out of the workspace to tracks could also be interesting, who knows?

complex routing schemes like old school modular synths would finally become possible to interact with in the fx window...
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:29 PM   #20
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I understand the pin matrix and use it very well.

However I think that this modular and visible approach wins definitely. Can't hurt to have them both, optional!
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:39 AM   #21
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the pin matrix is good, and most things are possible with it, but it provides no instant visual representation of the different lines of audio within the chain. You have to enter the pin config for each individual plug to work that out.
I use it mainly to create sends, without actually having to go outside the track which is extremely useful in keeping your project nice and tidy, but it is easy to get into a bit of a muddle remembering what is going where, especially if coming back to an older project.
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Old 10-26-2009, 10:00 PM   #22
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I just find the matrix so slow compared to actually looking in the drop down list
Don't know why but it just doesn't work as fast with my brain

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Old 10-27-2009, 04:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kainer View Post
This Traktion/Logic-environment-Style is good imho. As optional add on.
I like this one more than the boring, and unreadable gridbox-in and out-thing (the reason I never use the routing matrix. it takes too long to figure out where I am and where have to look at.)

YES I AGREE TOTALLY...dragging cables and plugging them in (a la Logic since very early versions and even graphic apps like Poser 5 upwards (in the materials editor) use a plug in system, it works well with most peoples ability to understand.
I dont even look that much at the current system, its not clear enough to me in a layout sense.
The pic of the cable system is far better IMHO.
Cheers
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:50 AM   #24
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.. and we can already drag jack plugs to create Sends.

So +1 for drag'n'drop channel connectors in a modular view (as well as working in the Routing Matrix
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:26 PM   #25
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.. and the modular approach is not only a graphical/workflow enhancement. Except if it's restricted to sequential "paths" (but it would be a strange modular view, then!) it indirectly implies new features, e.g., for MIDI, "parallel" FX processing.
this FR is a black hole!
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Old 11-02-2009, 10:37 AM   #26
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I think some people may be getting confused so we need to lay down the issue here
Basically people are saying Modular view like Reaper isn't already completly modular (IT IS)
The idea here is actually a nodal view, this is what we want

I only bring this up because i know some users of other nodal systems like XT and so on actually believe that Reaper isn't modular when it is fully modular
All we are asking for is a different viewing system (Nodal)

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Old 11-02-2009, 10:50 AM   #27
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"nodal" ? I don't understand (bad english ;-). Can you elaborate with an example, e.g. with a 100% MIDI FX Chain.
With a different representation of that MIDI chain example, I understand you want to see the same sequential path (!) but in a "nodal" view (and just adding "replace/merge MIDI output" popup on output links ?)
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:09 AM   #28
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NAS is right strictly speaking. Modular just means that modules (plugs in this case) can be freely routed to each other (and to track inputs and outputs). REAPER does this.

The issue is that the current pin display shows each module's inputs and outputs separately, as rows for one and columns for the other, and shows connections as check boxes. So tracing signal flow requires you to look at a module's output column, see which row(s) are checked - note the module names for those rows, then look to each of those modules' output columns and see which rows are checked etc. (or is it vice versa? - that's one of my problems....)

Forming a mental picture of the resulting network of modules is very challenging.

The request is to offer an additional display mode - one which shows the inputs and outputs of each module as nodes on the left or right (or top or bottom) of a graphic object representing the module. Connections are then represented by "patch cords". This kind of display is colloquially referred to as "modular" because it calls to mind the old modular synthesizers.
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:31 AM   #29
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semiquaver, I perfectly understand that, this view should indeed be another representation of what already exists (golden rule, especially for a dev!)
but, here, I try to elaborate/show you something wrong... as it's said "I'm getting confused". so NAS, semiquaver how do you see that MIDI chain? sequential, right ? (as it should simply be another representation) => so, a modular view for a sequential thing, strange isn't it ?
other: i don't want a modular view à la eXT, there's a huge/fundamentral design error in it...
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Old 11-02-2009, 12:51 PM   #30
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Sorry, not clear,I try to clarify..
IMO, if you talk about a modular view within a FX chain, people will naturally think they can do something like:



but -within a fx chain- this isn't possible today, so it cannot be just "another representation" !

The above example is course doable in Reaper today, but *not* within a FX chain. Reaper is indeed completly modular but thanks to track routing. note: the pic above is not a mockup proposition, just to illustrate. grey connections = MIDI, as you can see I didn't go into audio, but lot of things to say too!

[EDIT]
guys! I was a bit too straight in post 29, sorry. I understand what you say, I also think it should just be another representation, that's why -I- think this FR is tied to track routing. However, I also think this representation should not be tied to to the TCP/MCP/FX Chains, like it's done in eXT. That's what i'm trying to code... from time to time...

Last edited by Jeffos; 11-02-2009 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:25 PM   #31
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What am i missing here ?
Why cant that be done in reaper currently ?

I'm probably just being blind but i dont see anything in that image that cant be done in reaper (Like i say i may be being blind)

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Old 11-05-2009, 04:41 AM   #32
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NAS, I now understand why we didn't understand each other...
Within a FX chain, no we can't: in short, the MIDI path is sequential. There's some flexibility thanks to "replace/merge MIDI output" features, but thoses ones are limited to VSTs, and even with that, you cannot do the above, just try
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:53 AM   #33
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OK that's a great point JeffOs.

"Allow Midi to be freely Patched Between Plugs (like audio currently)"

would be a great FR.
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Old 11-08-2009, 01:25 AM   #34
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Oh crap my bad Jeffos i did not notice it was MIDI routing that is what i was missing
I said i was being blind didn't i hehehehehe
And yes like much MIDI in Reaper it is way behind audio as usual

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Old 11-08-2009, 09:10 AM   #35
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http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1489
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:19 AM   #36
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Yeah would be nice if the nodal view got done when that FR got done
Would definatly round out the routing a lot

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Old 02-08-2010, 03:32 AM   #37
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Modular view could save me lots of channels and tiresome linking plans.


Last edited by Reflected; 02-08-2010 at 03:39 AM.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:00 AM   #38
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Get Bidule.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:37 AM   #39
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Bidule has Reaper built in now
Cool gonna go check it out now

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Old 03-13-2010, 06:20 PM   #40
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this FR is not so much use before making midi modular,

but if it ever dose go midi modular then this may be the best way to deal with it (as currently midi & audio are sent together from what i can tell)




anyhoo, a big +1 from me!! i find the modular approach much quicker than the current reaper method (3.3.5)

i still use XT vst for my complex modular setups (but that's mainly due to them being saved already as XT presets )


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