Old 11-28-2009, 09:34 AM   #1
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default MIDI Loop Recording in REAPER

Disclamer: Please take this as speculation. I'd like to consider this post like a "scientific paper" whereby I'm presenting a theory, while at the same time expecting thoughtful criticism and refutation. If the theory holds, perhaps the devs can/should take action. I will edit this post when/if factual errors are found.

I orginially used the word "sucks" in the title to get you to read this. But, I love REAPER, and REAPER certainly doesn't suck.

As I've reported here (http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=32579), MIDI loop recording in REAPER is wack--especially, if you're coming from a loop-friendly DAW (like Live).

The problem: When recording MIDI loops, its nearly impossible to reliably record the first note you play in the loop--even with input quantize enabled. That's a huge workflow-killer. You can easily test this out.

I'll discuss the why's below, but first let's define some terms:

"Records what you play": This means the DAW records each MIDI note as its received.

"Records what you hear": This means the DAW records what you are hearing. The incoming midi notes are adjusted to the right by the detected latency, and they are captured on the time line as such.

Why it is not a problem in Live: Live records what you hear. Incoming MIDI is adjusted to the right by the amount of detected latency. Thus, when input quantize is enabled, the first notes of the loop are captured properly.

Why it is a problem in REAPER: REAPER records what you play. Thus, the notes are sometimes a captured earlier than they're heard. The result in REAPER is sometimes the first note is not captured at all or its captured at the end of the loop.

Possible solution for REAPER: When input quantize is enabled, REAPER should record what you hear. It should adjust the captured notes by the amount of detected latency BEFORE the quantization is applied. This will likely ensure solid loop recording. Alternatively, REAPER could provide an option to record what is heard vs what is played. This is so users know exactly how their data is being handled. REAPER would thus make no assumptions about how users want their data captured. In any case, I think input quantization should be applied AFTER the notes are captured by REAPER.

Note: In Live to "record what you play", you have to disable input monitoring for the track on which you are recording. You have to then monitor the output on a separate track if you want to hear the output.

It should be noted that there are valid use cases for both "record what you play" and "record what you hear" paradigms.

"Record what you play": Good for improvising, and non-loop based-recording where you want to keep the "feel" of your recording. NOTE: In REAPER (and other DAWs), we've found that you still have to make adjustments to the notes. I'm not sure why that is. See also: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=47044.

"Record what you hear": Good for looping based, quantized recording.

At least in Live you have the option to also record what you play--even by doing the aforementioned workaround.

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: I think both REAPER and Live use their own internal time stamps to avoid jitter. Its what happens after the time stamp that we're talking about here.

Disclamer (Again): Please take this as speculation. I'd like to consider this post like a "scientific paper" whereby I'm presenting a theory, while at the same time expecting thoughtful criticism and refutation. If the theory holds, perhaps the devs can/should take action.

References:

Ableton Live 8 Manual - Chapter 32 - MIDI Fact Sheet

Schwa's MIDI Explanation: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=34533

MIDI Loop Recording: I can't Record First Note: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=32579

MIDI Notes Placed Ahead of Time: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=47044

Long discussion and Feature Request In Ableton Forum: http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.p...ilit=jbone1313

Last edited by jbone1313; 07-09-2010 at 06:06 PM.
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2009, 10:22 AM   #2
EricM
Human being with feelings
 
EricM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
Default

In short, we need another recording mode that does not
pre-delay MIDI after recording for the I/O latency amount,
when using software snyths.

Doing that is only needed for hardware synths.
EricM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2009, 10:55 AM   #3
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

If REAPER is really doing that, that might solve the looping problem.

How do you know REAPER pre-delays the notes after recording? It sure seems that way based on the tests in the other thread, but is that official behavior?

Maybe there needs to be three possible MIDI recording behaviors in REAPER:

1. Pre-Delay Notes After Recording (To account for external hardware synths).
2. Record what you play (no pre-delay)
3. Record what you hear (no pre-delay)

In any case, I think input quantization should operate after the above (after notes are recorded/captured).
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2009, 11:10 AM   #4
EricM
Human being with feelings
 
EricM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
How do you know REAPER pre-delays the notes after recording? It sure seems that way based on the tests in the other thread, but is that official behavior?
I might not have said it correctly, it's not like it records
and than shifts back, but it records them with hardware latency
compensation while they are being sent to synths without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
In any case, I think input quantization should operate after the above (after notes are recorded/captured).
Indeed.
EricM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2009, 01:17 PM   #5
EricM
Human being with feelings
 
EricM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
Default

Record what you play / hear = record: input / record: output (MIDI)

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=414105#92
Attached Images
File Type: jpg midirec.jpg (44.6 KB, 641 views)

Last edited by EricM; 11-29-2009 at 01:25 PM.
EricM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2009, 01:28 PM   #6
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

I already thought of that. That's fine, but then you can't do overdubbing.

So maybe we need REAPER to allow both Record Output AND Overdubbing.
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2009, 05:28 PM   #7
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

Edited.

Last edited by jbone1313; 07-10-2010 at 05:40 AM.
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2009, 05:46 PM   #8
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

I have to wonder if all of these problems could be avoided if REAPER used the time stampes provided by the MIDI interface differently. (I think REAPER does use the time stamps, but I'm not sure that REAPER uses it to precisely set the location of the recorded/captured note.)

Note that Schwa talks about time stamps in this post: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=34533

It seems like what should be happening (and is not happening), is that REAPER should take the provided time stamp, and use that to place the note on the time line.

I've noticed that MIDI timing is tighter in Ableton Live (notwithstanding the delays Ableton adds to the captured notes to record what is "heard" rather than what is "played").

From the Ableton Live Manual - Chapter 32 - MIDI Fact Sheet

Quote:
Live needs to know exactly when those events were received from the MIDI keyboard. But Live cannot receive them directly they must first be processed by the MIDI interface’s drivers and the operating system.

To solve this problem, the interface drivers give each MIDI event a timestamp as they receive it, and those are passed to Live along with the event so that Live knows exactly when the events should be added to the clip.
RE Recording what is heard vs what is played:
Quote:
When monitoring is enabled during recording, Live adds an additional delay to the timestamp of the event based on the buffer size of your audio hardware. This added latency makes it possible to record events to the clip at the time you hear them  not the time you play them.
I'll bet a lot more folks are using Live for loop recording, and if Live didn't MIDI things in this manner, people would notice very quickly. They probably had to address that problem early-on, since they are very "loop oriented."
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2009, 06:03 PM   #9
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

It seems REAPER does allow the more accurate time stamps to determine the note placement. In each MIDI controller's right click menu, under "Configure Input", you have the option to choose some MIDI time stamp options.

It still seems not quite right though.

Last edited by jbone1313; 11-29-2009 at 06:25 PM.
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2009, 06:22 PM   #10
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,519
Default

The 'recording misses the first note' thing should be addressed. I don't know how Reaper deals with it but it's a common thing to hit the keys early in punch-in midi recording, sending the notes milliseconds before recording has activated.

My ideas on this:

- if there are note-off event, without previous note-ons (after recording started), insert note-ons at the beginning of the recording.

not the best solution since you also need note-on velocity...

so....

- capture incoming midi data even before recording has begun and judge from there... IMO the beginning of the recorded item should have the note-on events (that were fired a few ms right before recording). So you get the beginning of the performance.

Other sequencers allow MIDI data to exist beyond both edges of the MIDI item (which is revealed by extending the MIDI item, otherwise it's hidden and not heard). This is the best framework to work with (which is also part of my FR regarding freely resizable MIDI items).
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2009, 09:13 AM   #11
keys
Human being with feelings
 
keys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: South Coast, England
Posts: 695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
The 'recording misses the first note' thing should be addressed..

Other sequencers allow MIDI data to exist beyond both edges of the MIDI item (which is revealed by extending the MIDI item, otherwise it's hidden and not heard).
I agree. I never seem to be able to capture the first note. My latency is around 6mS. I was able to do this ok in an old version of cubase I think because it extended the MIDI item to include the first note-on and very last note-off.
Keys.
keys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2009, 09:18 AM   #12
EricM
Human being with feelings
 
EricM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posts: 3,801
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keys View Post
I agree. I never seem to be able to capture the first note. My latency is around 6mS. I was able to do this ok in an old version of cubase I think because it extended the MIDI item to include the first note-on and very last note-off.
Keys.
It would be cool to have "Record: On MIDI NoteOn MSG" mode for Reaper
to start recording automatically when first MIDI Note ON message arrives.
EricM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2009, 09:20 AM   #13
keys
Human being with feelings
 
keys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: South Coast, England
Posts: 695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM View Post
It would be cool to have "Record: On MIDI NoteOn MSG" mode for Reaper
to start recording automatically when first MIDI Note ON message arrives.
Amen. +1!
keys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2009, 09:13 PM   #14
AndyNewton
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 153
Default

Does the REAPER setup for audio latency correction have any influence on MIDI recording?
I am a complete MIDI noob, but I mention this because I noticed that the discussion above is suspiciously similar to the REAPER audio behaviour controlled by these three options: Use Audio Driver Reported Latency, Output manual offset, and Input manual offset.

The three AUDIO recording behaviours are described below:

If total latency is X milliseconds.....

1) Input manual offset - enter value X - latency is corrected perfectly but the first X ms of audio input is lost, not recorded. (similar to the MIDI loop recording problem?)

2) Output manual offset - enter value X - latency is corrected perfectly, no audio input is lost, but the playback cursor jumps backwards by X ms when recording starts and moves through media items with a constant Xms displacement from the true playback position.

3) Use audio driver reported latency - REAPER behaves the same as in Output manual offset, without the need to enter a value manually.
AndyNewton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2009, 09:24 PM   #15
Chris Ihao
Human being with feelings
 
Chris Ihao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyNewton View Post
Does the REAPER setup for audio latency correction have any influence on MIDI recording?
Follow this thread: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=32951

Should contain everything you need to know about this
Chris Ihao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2010, 05:40 AM   #16
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

Now that MIDI's getting alot of attention, maybe this issue can be fixed?
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2010, 06:16 AM   #17
jmcecil
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
I'd like to consider this post like a "scienfic paper"
Is that like a documentated strategery?
jmcecil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2010, 07:07 AM   #18
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

Typo corrected.
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2010, 07:45 AM   #19
jmcecil
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
Typo corrected.
hehe, I was just messing around. I like your post. And, support your efforts for improvement to Reaper MIDI completely!
jmcecil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2010, 08:38 AM   #20
Subz
Human being with feelings
 
Subz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2,963
Default

this thread gets my support

Subz
Subz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2010, 11:50 AM   #21
DeyBwah
Human being with feelings
 
DeyBwah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,572
Default

+1
__________________
HDSPe | D-Box | MP500-NV | Essence | Obsidian | SM57 | Beta52 | Equi=Tech | CMS40 | HS80 w/HS10W http://soundcloud.com/deybwah | http://www.facebook.com/pages/DeyBwah/208627672487538 | http://twitter.com/#!/DeyBwah
DeyBwah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2010, 11:58 AM   #22
DarthFader
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 324
Default

Is there a Midi track delay param or plugin that can take both negative and postive amounts?

Most DAWs have something like this...

DF
DarthFader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2010, 06:02 PM   #23
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthFader View Post
Is there a Midi track delay param or plugin that can take both negative and postive amounts?
Not sure. It would be better if it just worked.
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2010, 07:26 PM   #24
PitchSlap
Human being with feelings
 
PitchSlap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
It seems that enabling "Preserve PDC Delayed Monitoring in Recorded Items" combined with input quantize seems to resolve my issue.

Occasionally, REAPER misses the first note, but its not as bad. Of course, that could be my timing. On the other hand, Ableton always gets my first note.

Thanks to all for all of your help and patience.
Thanks for the thread.

I think I'll try playing with those settings myself, as I've also encountered the problem where what I heard (and based my playing on) sounds very different when played back and it's easy to lose the feel.


I also love Reaper, and after giving Ableton a go a while back to 'see what all the fuss was about', I found there are many things related to the program's workflow that are FAR more 'polished' than Reaper. Loop recording being the biggest.

Personally, I think the reason 'MIDI Loop Recording Sucks in REAPER' is largely the same reason audio loop recording does: lack of global quantization, which in turn, makes the take system even more frustrating because I always end up with these annoying little item fragments if I start/end recording a few ms from perfection. And to add insult to injury, these useless little fragments BECOME THE ACTIVE TAKE EVEN IF THEY CONTAIN NO DATA!

Nobody EVER wants a 3.3.99.9999999999 length item (especially when loop recording).

I really wish some of these little workflow and creativity killing details would get addressed, because when you deal with them on a daily basis they quickly become big details...
__________________
FRs: v5 Media Explorer Requests, Global Quantization, Session View
Win10 64-bit, Reaper 5(x64), Core i7-5700HQ, 16GB RAM, GeForce GTX 960M, SSD
PitchSlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2010, 01:12 AM   #25
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,332
Default

This thread should be moved in bugs (or FR) subforum...
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2010, 05:44 AM   #26
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap View Post
Thanks for the thread.

I think I'll try playing with those settings myself, as I've also encountered the problem where what I heard (and based my playing on) sounds very different when played back and it's easy to lose the feel.


I also love Reaper, and after giving Ableton a go a while back to 'see what all the fuss was about', I found there are many things related to the program's workflow that are FAR more 'polished' than Reaper. Loop recording being the biggest.

Personally, I think the reason 'MIDI Loop Recording Sucks in REAPER' is largely the same reason audio loop recording does: lack of global quantization, which in turn, makes the take system even more frustrating because I always end up with these annoying little item fragments if I start/end recording a few ms from perfection. And to add insult to injury, these useless little fragments BECOME THE ACTIVE TAKE EVEN IF THEY CONTAIN NO DATA!

Nobody EVER wants a 3.3.99.9999999999 length item (especially when loop recording).

I really wish some of these little workflow and creativity killing details would get addressed, because when you deal with them on a daily basis they quickly become big details...
I edited my post that you quoted, because it was a bit misleading. Those settings really didn't solve my problem in the end. I still think this needs a fix on the dev side.
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2010, 05:44 AM   #27
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
This thread should be moved in bugs (or FR) subforum...
Personally, I like it here; it gets more visibility.
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2010, 01:18 PM   #28
digaldeman
Human being with feelings
 
digaldeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In Da Club
Posts: 291
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
...It would be better if it just worked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
Personally, I like it here; it gets more visibility.
I agree.

The suckiness of REAPER's MIDI recording is not just a bug, it is a MAJOR problem. I actually went back to FL Studio because I was ready to jump off the nearest bridge every time I tried to record something. I keep hoping the developers are currently working on solving this MAJOR problem.
digaldeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2010, 09:12 PM   #29
pbk
Human being with feelings
 
pbk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Afford Slaughterhouse, FL
Posts: 622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by digaldeman View Post
I agree.

The suckiness of REAPER's MIDI recording is not just a bug, it is a MAJOR problem. I actually went back to FL Studio because I was ready to jump off the nearest bridge every time I tried to record something. I keep hoping the developers are currently working on solving this MAJOR problem.
Haha. I am glad I am not the only one doing the same thing. I usually have both programs open when I'm recoding MIDI for that reason. I will be delighted when this annoyance gets fixed so I can stop switching between apps (a real workflow killer).

I also like the fact that FLS is always listening to your MIDI in the background, so you can dump/skip-back MIDI to a track whenever something useful happens before it goes into oblivion. It would be nice to have something similar in Reaper.
pbk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2010, 09:28 PM   #30
PitchSlap
Human being with feelings
 
PitchSlap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,207
Default

While were on the topic...

Another workflow killer for me recording MIDI is related to having "Automatic Record-Arm When Track Selected".

For me at least (perhaps I have an errant setting), when switching tracks with this option enabled (which is otherwise a great feature), I usually will get a brief audio dropout and when the MIDI resumes playing, sustained notes (pads etc) and CC's like the hold pedal aren't resumed so it often changes the playback considerably and I either have to wait for the next time the item is repeated or stop and start again. This unfortunately tends to waste more time than the feature saves.
__________________
FRs: v5 Media Explorer Requests, Global Quantization, Session View
Win10 64-bit, Reaper 5(x64), Core i7-5700HQ, 16GB RAM, GeForce GTX 960M, SSD
PitchSlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2010, 02:40 PM   #31
Subz
Human being with feelings
 
Subz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2,963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap View Post
While were on the topic...

Another workflow killer for me recording MIDI is related to having "Automatic Record-Arm When Track Selected".

For me at least (perhaps I have an errant setting), when switching tracks with this option enabled (which is otherwise a great feature), I usually will get a brief audio dropout and when the MIDI resumes playing, sustained notes (pads etc) and CC's like the hold pedal aren't resumed so it often changes the playback considerably and I either have to wait for the next time the item is repeated or stop and start again. This unfortunately tends to waste more time than the feature saves.
yep, it sends a allnotesoff command of some sort (not needed in this situation IMO well not for me!)

would be nice to be able to disable this as a option

Subz
Subz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2010, 02:47 PM   #32
Subz
Human being with feelings
 
Subz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2,963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subz View Post
this thread gets my support

Subz

although the thread info gets my support

the thread title "Sucks"

a more constructive thread title may have got more involvement from the devs!

Subz
Subz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2010, 04:43 PM   #33
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

I tried to change it a long time ago if I remember. You'll notice the title of the first post is, "MIDI Loop Recording in REAPER".
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2010, 04:49 PM   #34
Subz
Human being with feelings
 
Subz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2,963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
I tried to change it a long time ago if I remember. You'll notice the title of the first post is, "MIDI Loop Recording in REAPER".

so i see

maybe a Mod will take Mercy & update the thread title accordingly

some really valid points in here it would be a shame if they where missed in the current midi love fever

Subz
Subz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2010, 04:56 PM   #35
jbone1313
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subz View Post
so i see

maybe a Mod will take Mercy & update the thread title accordingly

some really valid points in here it would be a shame if they where missed in the current midi love fever

Subz
Yeah, that would be great. I meant no disrespect. I was just trying to get the thread attention.
jbone1313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2010, 09:56 PM   #36
Mercado_Negro
Moderator
 
Mercado_Negro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 8,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
I tried to change it a long time ago if I remember. You'll notice the title of the first post is, "MIDI Loop Recording in REAPER".
Done
__________________
Pressure is what turns coal into diamonds - Michael a.k.a. Runaway
Mercado_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2011, 04:37 AM   #37
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 7,112
Default

is there no existing FR to vote on this?

I can't understand why recording midi takes isn't just like audio, where it's one continuous item, conveniently divided by loop pass into takes.
__________________
Myy Wyyrd Muzyyk
foxAsteria is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 11:37 PM   #38
Scoox
Human being with feelings
 
Scoox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Wuxi, China
Posts: 253
Default Can we have Reaper MIDI loop recording a la Cubase please?

Reaper is my favourite DAW by miles but I often struggle with its MIDI loop recording capabilities. The best path Cockos could possibly take is to imitate Cubase's MIDI loop recording modes. They are absolutely awesome.

Reaper's replace mode is useless both when loop recording and non-loop recording: Parts of previous notes get chopped off and then you end up with a messy hybrid of the previous take and the current one. In Cubase, Replace Mode replaces the ENTIRE last take (not just the bits where you hit notes) ONLY if MIDI input is received. So you play something, then you listen to it over and over, while nothing is being recorded (although record is still engaged and waiting for more MIDI input). If you decide you don't like it, you simply play the part again and the previous take gets overwritten by the new one. Replace on MIDI input. How awesome is that?

Also, in normal mode Reaper keeps adding new takes even when no MIDI input has been received. This makes no sense: I always end up with loads of empty takes and then I have to go and sort them out. Cubase only adds a new take if MIDI input was received, so there's never empty takes. In Reaper I always feel under pressure to keep playing in fear of creating too many empty takes and then having to worry about tidying up the mess. In Cubase I can simply take a break, listen to the last take as many times as I see fit, and then carry on when I am ready to do the next take. This feels so natural and comfortable, I often record my MIDI in Cubase and then import it into Reaper.

OK maybe I am missing something, but I would like to know if anyone agrees with this:

MIDI non-loop recording:
  • Record: Input - Works as expected
  • Record MIDI: Overdub in existing items - Works as expected
  • Record MIDI: Replace in existing items - Useless
  • Record MIDI: Touch-replace in existing items - Useless

MIDI loop recording:
  • Record: Input - Average, could be improved to not record empty takes
  • Record MIDI: Overdub in existing items - Works as expected
  • Record MIDI: Replace in existing items - Useless
  • Record MIDI: Touch-replace in existing items - Useless

Also, I would like to be able to UNDO the last take whilst recording. This is possible in a number of other DAWs e.g. Samplitude. This is great because you can always go back the previous take when using Replace Mode. In Reaper you first need to disengage the Record button and then you can undo. This can be solved using a macro, but ideally it should be built-in because it simply makes sense.

Generally speaking I don't particularly like Cubase's workflow (which is why I use Reaper) but I must admit Steinberg have got this one 100% spot-on.

What do you pals think?

Last edited by Scoox; 02-02-2017 at 04:49 AM.
Scoox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 12:33 AM   #39
copacetic
Human being with feelings
 
copacetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,296
Default

I don't have the time now to examine your post in detail, but what I can say with regards to MIDI loop recording, is that I've found a way that fits what I need, I can record as many passes as I like, and my stop macro crops to active take in items, so I'm only left with the last complete loop.
__________________
I am a universal adaptor.
copacetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 04:34 AM   #40
henge
Human being with feelings
 
henge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoox View Post
Reaper is my favourite DAW by miles but I often struggle with its MIDI loop recording capabilities. The best path Cockos could possibly take is to imitate Cubase's MIDI loop recording modes. They are absolutely awesome.

Reaper's replace mode is useless both when loop recording and non-loop recording: Parts of previous notes get chopped off and then you end up with a messy hybrid of the previous take and the current one. In Cubase, Replace Mode replaces the ENTIRE last take (not just the bits where you hit notes) ONLY if MIDI input is received. So you play something, then you listen to it over and over, while nothing is being recorded (although record is still engaged and waiting for more MIDI input). If you decide you don't like it, you simply play the part again and the previous take gets overwritten by the new one. Replace on MIDI input. How awesome is that?

Also, in normal mode Reaper keeps adding new takes even when no MIDI input has been received. This makes no sense: I always end up with loads of empty takes and then I have to go and sort them out. Cubase only adds a new take if MIDI input was received, so there's never empty takes. In Reaper I always feel under pressure to keep playing in fear of creating too many empty takes and then having to worry about tidying up the mess. In Cubase I can simply take a break, listen to the last take as many times as I see fit, and then carry on when I am ready to do the next take. This feels so natural and comfortable, I often record my MIDI in Cubase and then import it into Reaper.

OK maybe I am missing something, but I would like to know if anyone agrees with the following assessment:

MIDI non-loop recording:
  • Record: Input - Works as expected
  • Record MIDI: Overdub in existing items - Works as expected
  • Record MIDI: Replace in existing items - Useless
  • Record MIDI: Touch-replace in existing items - Useless

MIDI loop recording:
  • Record: Input - Average, could be improved to not record empty takes
  • Record MIDI: Overdub in existing items - Works as expected
  • Record MIDI: Replace in existing items - Useless
  • Record MIDI: Touch-replace in existing items - Useless

Also, I would like to be able to UNDO the last take whilst recording. This is possible in a number of other DAWs e.g. Samplitude. This is great because you can always go back the previous take when using Replace Mode. In Reaper you first need to disengage the Record button and then you can undo. This can be solved using a macro, but ideally it should be built-in because it simply makes sense.

Generally speaking I don't particularly like Cubase's workflow (which is why I use Reaper) but I must admit Steinberg have got this one 100% spot-on.

What do you pals think?
This is very logical. Makes total sense to me.
__________________
Registered Reaper user.
http://www.villageworkscanada.com/landingpad.cfm
henge is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.