Old 01-17-2007, 01:49 PM   #1
Bevoss
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Default Does Reaper edit at sample level?

Someone on another site made the comment we don't have sample editing. What happens when you magnify right in on an item in Reaper, is that down to one sample? It looks very similar to Samplitude which I'm pretty sure would. Just curious, I haven't found anything I couldn't cut or select/modify whatever, I'd just like to know what I'm talking about and any advantages/disadvantages therein.

So if anyone with some technical knowledge here would jump in?
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Old 01-17-2007, 02:49 PM   #2
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you can do sample-level editing, however you can't manipulate the sample directly.. you can put in a tiny fade, etc, though...
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Old 01-17-2007, 02:57 PM   #3
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Thanks!
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Old 01-17-2007, 03:53 PM   #4
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needs to go past 1:1 and show dots for the slices
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:53 PM   #5
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Samplitude has the best looking one I think when you get down that low, it looks like skyscrapers sort of...eyecandy I grant you, but cool.
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:08 PM   #6
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skyscrapers or dots, either is fine with me
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:21 PM   #7
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I also noticed you can zoom in a bit further in Samplitude, to about 3 samples across the screen...might be handy for crossfading a single sample?? Might be useless too...anyway, it looks cool.
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:49 PM   #8
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Skyscrapers gives rise to the notion that digital audio is actually some kind of high-speed square wave, whereas the design of D to A conversion means that it's a perfectly normal waveform. So dots on a waveform which illustrates what you'll hear after D to A conversion is perhaps technically more correct, though I concede that one could argue over which is a better user interface method.
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:52 PM   #9
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I'm easy...it's all good, whatever Justin likes (or doesn't!)
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:54 PM   #10
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As far as I am concerned, though curves would be more accurate, the 'skyscraper' type drawing has a couple advantages. First it makes it abundantly clear where the next sample is, and second it might cost less CPU to draw a straight line than figure a curve.
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Old 01-17-2007, 08:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans View Post
Skyscrapers gives rise to the notion that digital audio is actually some kind of high-speed square wave, whereas the design of D to A conversion means that it's a perfectly normal waveform. So dots on a waveform which illustrates what you'll hear after D to A conversion is perhaps technically more correct, though I concede that one could argue over which is a better user interface method.

well right now we show each sample as a line so it's just not obvious enough (and two subsequent samples that are the same are blended into one)
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Old 01-17-2007, 09:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
well right now we show each sample as a line so it's just not obvious enough (and two subsequent samples that are the same are blended into one)
Perhaps the lines could continue to the zero crossing? Seems to make a big difference in how you view the part to edit, if you have a huge zoom you don't have to concentrate on the top of the wave when you have vertical lines running down them.(my skyscraper analogy)
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Old 01-17-2007, 09:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevoss View Post
Perhaps the lines could continue to the zero crossing? Seems to make a big difference in how you view the part to edit, if you have a huge zoom you don't have to concentrate on the top of the wave when you have vertical lines running down them.(my skyscraper analogy)

something nifty is coming for 1.68 =)
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Old 01-17-2007, 09:38 PM   #14
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Oh goody
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Old 01-17-2007, 09:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
something nifty is coming for 1.68 =)
shit yeah. i love this band!!!
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Old 01-17-2007, 10:58 PM   #16
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personally I really like having an EXTERNAL editor... only thing I've noticed using GoldWave is that REAPER needs to be stopped to save the edited sample... Fine with me... and oh so lean REAPER continues to thrill... I get very nervous , shakey even having run StingBerg and E-no-Magic bloat for oh so long....

ahhhhh..... sweet reaper...
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Old 01-17-2007, 11:28 PM   #17
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I've got Reaper and Samplitude set as external editors, but truthfully I hardly need to use them.

I wonder if the surprise is an editor???

How much is Reaper forums like an addictive soap, just waiting to see what the next download brings?
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:23 AM   #18
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I'd say Sam has the best sample display which is a must anyway for any sample accurate positioning and 'NULL TESTS'


Cheers

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Old 01-18-2007, 05:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
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I'd say Sam has the best sample display which is a must anyway for any sample accurate positioning and 'NULL TESTS'


Cheers

M
Precisely correct. Samplitudes display is a perfect visual representation of the actual digital audio, clearly defining time & level of each individual sample (which is what sample accurate editing is all about).
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:37 AM   #20
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I do wish there were a single-sample manipulation method...

Zooming in Reaper seems to occur in stages, or at least has that feel to me. Somewhat like those CGI movie shots of "great distance>medium distance>close>micro",

Hmm..

Actually, the problem is showing dots/points at a zoomed out threshold so that you can get a feeling as to where to "aim" the cursor for the zoom...
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Old 01-18-2007, 02:47 PM   #21
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I pair Reaper with CoolEdit 2000, which has a nice per-sample editing mode, including pencil-editing.

I generally find that pencil-editing and redrawing individual samples gives less than amazing results. I generally do better by selecting a region of a few samples and applying a gain change, fades or a filter over those few samples.

Example - applying a lowpass filter over a region where there's a sharp transient over a lower sustained note - the lowpass dulls the transient but preserves the proper curve of the steady note.

I'll also cut a whole cycle, or replace one whole cycle with another, to remove glitches or transients.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:57 PM   #22
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In Audition ("fill single click now") and other editors there's the interpolation kind of tool which can avoid the need to draw by hand - basically samples are taken from either side of the click and it's filled in from that in logical fashion. Heh, I wonder whether Justin could provide something like that in real time?? After stating that Reaper would never have noise reduction, and seeing it implemented in a week, I'm not about to use the word "never" again!
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:42 PM   #23
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alright I just took a good look at the same display. I gotta say perfer the dots in vegas, but wouldnt mind either one
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:49 PM   #24
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with the cool edit thingy, the cursor changes automatically to a thingy to draw the thingys.

no tool switching
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:54 PM   #25
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I don't remember seeing dots in Vegas. I do remember them in Cool Edit / Audition though. I find it easier with the dots when doing fine grain editing, finding zero crossings, and nudging as close as possible to the beginning of a transient.
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Old 01-19-2007, 12:48 AM   #26
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Well that was fast. Love the new sample level display on the 1.68
release! Pretty nearly like Samplitude. Only significant improvement to it I might suggest would be to have the cursor automatically snap/align to the sample borders as obviously you can't split a file in the midle of a sample or move it less than a sample distance in time anyway.

Last edited by knowdoubt; 01-19-2007 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 01-19-2007, 03:30 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowdoubt View Post
Well that was fast. Love the new sample level display on the 1.68
release! Pretty nearly like Samplitude. Only significant improvement to it I might suggest would be to have the cursor automatically snap/align to the sample borders as obviously you can't split a file in the midle of a sample or move it less than a sample distance in time anyway.
I was thinking about that too, about snapping to the border. I also noticed Samplitude goes down to about 3-4 samples across the screen, whereas Reaper only gets to about 20-30 at maximum zoom (I didn't count them). It might be useful for accuracy to go further.
Or not.
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Old 01-19-2007, 09:00 AM   #28
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I like the zooming in 1.68 better now, except...

When you're zoomed all the way, it appears you can select a loop that starts on "half" a sample....? It gives the impression you don't really have sample-by-sample control. I haven't had time to play with it, so maybe I've missed something...

A thinger to control the things, as Jason points out, would be cool... mainly for removing clicks manually, that sort of thing...
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Old 01-19-2007, 09:49 AM   #29
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Yes - the display is getting there but marking should jump to the sample borders whether Snap is on or not - afeter all there is no way of playing a smaller area is there.....




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Old 01-19-2007, 01:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maa View Post
Yes - the display is getting there but marking should jump to the sample borders whether Snap is on or not - afeter all there is no way of playing a smaller area is there.....

+1 If that was the case more zoom would be redundant. As you say, you can't play a portion of a single sample...maybe fade it in/out but that's it.
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Old 01-19-2007, 01:25 PM   #31
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well, reaper does support sub-sample accuracy
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Old 01-19-2007, 01:28 PM   #32
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Ha, good one...
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Old 01-19-2007, 03:49 PM   #33
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Maybe some might be interested in these FR about sample level editing and snapping...

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2477

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3808
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Old 01-19-2007, 05:09 PM   #34
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Yes Billoon - as I said above.....
If snap is on of off it makes no difference at sample level because there is no smaller value - the cursor should snap. Items to then naturally.



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