Old 02-22-2010, 06:50 AM   #1
Deltones
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Default User-defineable fader steps

If there's one thing that nearly makes me want to Elvis-ify my monitor when working with DAW's/Plugins, it's when adjusting volume values, you end up with a value of -1.47dB when you wanted -1.5dB, even in fine-adjustments mode.

Would it be possible to add an option in preference to define the step value you want to use when moving faders? For example, if you enter a value of 0.5 in preference option, moving up or down the track fader will step like this: 0dB, 0.5dB, 1.0dB etc.
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Old 02-22-2010, 07:05 AM   #2
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It's not just the steps (resolution), it's the actual curve that should be
adjustable, by either entering step value or some kind of Bezier envelope
interface (first option for simplicity of creating linear curves).
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:33 AM   #3
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I think we have two separate and possibly confusing requests here. Deltones is asking for user defineable gain steps, whereas you are asking for fader movement to gain curves. Am I correct? Doesn't the Prefs have a selectable curve factor for faders? Or are you asking for something more than this?

The gain step numbers do irritate me a little; I'm used to pushing or pulling faders to graticules of 5dB and you mentally subdivide that to 1 or ever half dB steps, but we have no guidelines apart from the 0dB line. I hate having to watch the changing dB number -it's like trying to time gear-change using a digital tachometer.

I'd be happy with user defineable dB lines and then I wouldn't care on the exact jump (I always have ctrl-mousewheel which is finer than audible anyway), but it would be nice to be able to set the faders to match familiar hardware.
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:39 AM   #4
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Ah you are correct, I forgot about the curve shape setting and didn't
thoroughly read the OP. Sorry.

It might be nice to add a modifier possibility to hold and move the
faders at user defined steps, agreed.
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
I think we have two separate and possibly confusing requests here. Deltones is asking for user defineable gain steps
That's right. Move the fader with your mouse, and the dB value increases/decreases according to your defined steps. Want to use 1dB? No problem. Want to move by 0.1dB each step instead because you want more precision? Make your day.
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:09 PM   #6
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Hi all,
I would like to see this request as well. I posted something yesterday in the wrong thread so I did a search and found this one and I hope that this is the right one to post. I would also like to say that Reaper is one of the best multitrack recording programs I've seen. This is what I posted in the wrong thread:

I'm now in the process of switching to Reaper from Vegas. I have always liked the way the volume control fader works in Vegas. For example, when I click on the left of the fader, where the fader line is, it brings down the volume in 1 db increments. When I click just above the fader line, it moves the fader in 1/10 of a db. This is real handy when fine tuning mixes especially for vocals.
Would it be possible to do this with Reaper?

Thanks, Wyatt Rice
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:24 PM   #7
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"...you end up with a value of -1.47dB when you wanted -1.5dB, even in fine-adjustments mode."

Isn't this just a matter of aesthetics?
Who can hear 0.03db. Or even 0.1 db?
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Old 02-24-2010, 07:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAPT View Post
"...you end up with a value of -1.47dB when you wanted -1.5dB, even in fine-adjustments mode."

Isn't this just a matter of aesthetics?
Who can hear 0.03db. Or even 0.1 db?
I can hear 0.5 db when raising or lowering harmony vocals. For example if I have a song that has three part harmonies, and the producer says: raise the tenor and baritone 1/2 a db, that would in fact be 1 db total. It does make a difference. I think it would be a nice feature to have in Reaper and it's also easier to remember.

Last edited by WyattRice; 03-05-2010 at 08:06 PM. Reason: Made Mistake( I meant 0.5db instead of 00.5)
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:45 PM   #9
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0.05 is 5/100 (1/20)of a db. Not 1/2.

The difference from 1.47 to 1.5 is 3/100 of a db. Three one-hundredths.

If you hear that then you are an alien from another planet.

Last edited by PAPT; 02-24-2010 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAPT View Post
If you hear that then you are an alien from another planet.
I agree with that. Also don't see the point in stepped faders.


But the current faders are definitely too fast in normal drag mode.


Quote:
User definable mouse speed/sensitivity setting for normal and fine tune modes (on faders and knobs) would be a nice thing.

Currently I'm not happy with the mouse speed in normal mode. Too fast. Maybe others also want to tune the speed for fine tune mode. So two options in the preferences for this.


These two settings would apply to

- all faders (mixer, tcp, cockos plugins ...)
- all knobs (parameter, sends, fx wet/dry ...)
- item volume handles ...
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1005
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Old 02-25-2010, 05:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
I agree with that. Also don't see the point in stepped faders.
The point would be that when you move your fader, it would move by the increment YOU want, and be consistent at all times, unlike now. I admit that the 1.47dB VS 1.5dB is not a sonic problem for me, but an aesthetic one: It bugs the living crap out of me.
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Old 02-25-2010, 04:09 PM   #12
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I cannot figure out why anybody wouldn't want this (just as an option.) You could have the default the way Reaper is now, and have volume fader increments as an option. I agree with Deltones and PAPT both. Can a human hear 10th's of a db's difference? No(if it's only 1 or 2 10th's on 1 track)and yes,(If you were making increments on multi-tracks). Would it be nice to have a user defined volume, or stepped faders settings as a option? I think it would. I know a lot of Vegas users switched over to Reaper because Vegas users didn't get some of the features that they wanted. If you check out the Vegas volume faders, they are right on (when it comes to increments.) Either way, I'm fine with the way Reaper is.
It's features are already incredible! This would be just one more great feature. By the way, this is just a request.

Thanks!

Last edited by WyattRice; 03-05-2010 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:11 PM   #13
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...but you're not a proper sound engineer unless you have the degree of compulsion that makes things like this important.

It also bugs me that the timeline doesn't subdivide nicely either on zooming in and out...

>
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
...but you're not a proper sound engineer unless you have the degree of compulsion that makes things like this important.

It also bugs me that the timeline doesn't subdivide nicely either on zooming in and out...

>
Thank You planetnine!,and to the original poster Deltones.
I do think that this is important. How can we get this posted somewhere to be voted on, or send this post to the developers?

Thanks!
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
...but you're not a proper sound engineer unless you have the degree of compulsion that makes things like this important.

It also bugs me that the timeline doesn't subdivide nicely either on zooming in and out...

>
I'd rather the developers spend time on things like this than on whether the vol shows 1.47 or 1.5.

The editor time line showing finer gradations as you zoom in and less as you zoom out is something that is usable and would make working in the piano roll easier.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAPT View Post
I'd rather the developers spend time on things like this than on whether the vol shows 1.47 or 1.5.

The editor time line showing finer gradations as you zoom in and less as you zoom out is something that is usable and would make working in the piano roll easier.
The original thread is User-defineable fader steps.
Mabye you could start a new one about time line showing finer gradations. Didn't mean to hijack this thread or upset anyone, but the original post by Deltones was:
User-defineable fader steps.
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Old 02-27-2010, 06:40 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyattrice View Post
I do think that this is important. How can we get this posted somewhere to be voted on, or send this post to the developers?

Thanks!
I'm not sure, but I think it relates to how many "+1" comments a thread gets before a request is considered a good candidate for development. Since I believe about 3 persons, including me, showed interest in this, it probably won't happen, at least in the near future. This would have improved my workflow a lot since I always need to right-click on a fader to adjust its value after the fact.
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Old 02-27-2010, 06:52 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltones View Post
I'm not sure, but I think it relates to how many "+1" comments a thread gets before a request is considered a good candidate for development...
No, the devs have proven not to rely on +1s. Lots of requests were implemented although there was no pressing number of votes for them and vice versa there are requests with many votes still waiting for implementation.

The +1 thing in feature request thread in this forum section is a thing of the past since there is the official issue tracker.
The place to get votes for your request is the issue tracker section.
You should post a good explanation of your request there and place a link to this thread in case there's more discussion needed.
Modus operandi is: Vote in the issue tracker, discuss in the forum.

Still, lots of votes doesn't equal speedy implementation, but makes the chances better. Few votes doesn't equal no implementation if the devs think it's a good idea.
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Old 02-27-2010, 07:19 AM   #19
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Quote:
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No, the devs have proven not to rely on +1s. Lots of requests were implemented although there was no pressing number of votes for them and vice versa there are requests with many votes still waiting for implementation.

The +1 thing in feature request thread in this forum section is a thing of the past since there is the official issue tracker.
The place to get votes for your request is the issue tracker section.
You should post a good explanation of your request there and place a link to this thread in case there's more discussion needed.
Modus operandi is: Vote in the issue tracker, discuss in the forum.

Still, lots of votes doesn't equal speedy implementation, but makes the chances better. Few votes doesn't equal no implementation if the devs think it's a good idea.
Ok, good to know about the proper procedure. Thanks.

Edit: I just noticed your avatar. I don't remember how it was called, but man were they brilliant cartoons.

Last edited by Deltones; 02-27-2010 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 02-28-2010, 04:57 AM   #20
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re avatar: search for "la linea" for some good laughs.
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:04 AM   #21
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I've put up a flash video example on how this would be useful in Reaper. I used Vegas for the example. When the video starts, you will notice that the mouse pointer is just above the slider line, and when clicking once, it brings down the volume in 10th's of a db, and when the pointer is on the center of the line, it brings the volume up in 1 db increments. When using the wheel, it brings the volume up or down in 1 db increments, and when using the ctrl key plus the wheel it's in 10th's of a db.

In Reaper, the increments are not even. It's been discussed in this thread:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=36663

Again, I think that Deltones is right. "Would it be possible to add an option in preference to define the step value you want to use when moving faders? For example, if you enter a value of 0.5 in preference option, moving up or down the track fader will step like this: 0dB, 0.5dB, 1.0dB etc."

Hopefully this thread will be seen by the developers, and be considered as an option. These fine increments do make a difference to me as demonstrated in this video especially when fine tuning Vocal tracks. Here's the link:

http://www.wyattrice.com/examplevvcmc.html

Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:07 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyattrice View Post
I've put up a flash video example on how this would be useful in Reaper. I used Vegas for the example. When the video starts, you will notice that the mouse pointer is just above the slider line, and when clicking once, it brings down the volume in 10th's of a db, and when the pointer is on the center of the line, it brings the volume up in 1 db increments. When using the wheel, it brings the volume up or down in 1 db increments, and when using the ctrl key plus the wheel it's in 10th's of a db.

In Reaper, the increments are not even. It's been discussed in this thread:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=36663

Again, I think that Deltones is right. "Would it be possible to add an option in preference to define the step value you want to use when moving faders? For example, if you enter a value of 0.5 in preference option, moving up or down the track fader will step like this: 0dB, 0.5dB, 1.0dB etc."

Hopefully this thread will be seen by the developers, and be considered as an option. These fine increments do make a difference to me as demonstrated in this video especially when fine tuning Vocal tracks. Here's the link:

http://www.wyattrice.com/examplevvcmc.html

Thanks, Wyatt
Good demonstration, although it's not exactly what I requested in the thread, but the idea is similar. Too bad not many people see an interest in the original post.
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:11 PM   #23
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+ a zillion on the Vegas way of stepping Faders.

already requested it a few times..
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyattrice View Post
[url]http://www.wyattrice.com/examplevvcmc.html[/url
Ok, this is indeed a cool feature. But on all other drag actions I don't see the need for stepped movement!
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:06 PM   #25
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Ok, this is indeed a cool feature. But on all other drag actions I don't see the need for stepped movement!
So, what you are telling is that you prefer having to press CTRL + mousewheel and adjust a fader that might not give you what you want (as of my 1.47 VS 1.5dB example)? Forget about the infinitesimal difference in volume between the 2 values. What I wanted was 1.5, not 1.47.

Of course, I can enter the value manually by right-clicking the fader. But if I have a group created, and the faders are all at -6.54dB let's say (when I wanted -6.5dB), manual entry on 1 fader doesn't distribute to the group and I have to go and manually adjust the values on all the other faders. It's a pain in the ass.

Last edited by Deltones; 03-01-2010 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:57 PM   #26
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Maybe we could have them with different settings. For example: Leave the current volume fader in drag mode alone, click on the center line and have 1 db increments, and then assign user defined steps to the wheel. This could be great for all faders for more accuracy including gain faders on fx plugins.

Thanks, Wyatt


Please Vote for this here: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1242

Last edited by WyattRice; 03-12-2010 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 04-13-2010, 03:23 PM   #27
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please, not everyone has mousewheel. (4x Logitech MarbleMouse here)

the Vegas way (optional) would be very cool, almost a life (and heart) saver
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
please, not everyone has mousewheel. (4x Logitech MarbleMouse here)

the Vegas way (optional) would be very cool, almost a life (and heart) saver
+1 BBB, time to bump this again. For the life of me, I can't figure why this FR had 5 no votes. This would be an option
Did they not watch the video?
Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:42 AM   #29
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Let's bump the thread again ; have there been some news about this request ?
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:53 AM   #30
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Yup it's really picked up steam, vote for it here:

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1242

I really really want this...

Honestly, I don't even need user defined steps, I just really want that second decimal place removed. It's totally unnecessary, lots of other DAWs get by just fine with only one decimal place and it solves the whole issue. Steppable faders would be nice, but getting rid of that second decimal place cleans it up enough for most of the people voting for this.

Pro Tools is the "industry standard" and only allows increments of 0.1db at the finest level, so if every record in the past 15 years has been done at 0.1db increments, it's good enough for me too. Anyone complaining that they need 0.01db increments is apparently better than all the pro engineers who have mixed platinum records in Pro Tools (or Logic, also 0.1db steps there.)
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:13 AM   #31
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My vision of this, is to keep Reaper's faders the way they are, and add the following options in the preferences.

Here's quick mockup of how it could be in the preferences.



And the result would be:



Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:55 AM   #32
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beautyful
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:17 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post


Thanks, Wyatt
This is a potential problem for those who select all items in selected tracks by double-clicking on it. I like the idea but I wouldn't like it to behave like that.

Cheers
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:26 AM   #34
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This is a potential problem for those who select all items in selected tracks by double-clicking on it. I like the idea but I wouldn't like it to behave like that.

Cheers
why would it be a problem? we cant select all items on the track by (dbl)clicking the Faders, can we? we can select em by dblclicking the empty area of the TCP

plus, it'd be an option
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:14 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
This is a potential problem for those who select all items in selected tracks by double-clicking on it. I like the idea but I wouldn't like it to behave like that.

Cheers


I was thinking only in the area of the fader line, and right above the line.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:20 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post
My vision of this, is to keep Reaper's faders the way they are, and add the following options in the preferences.

Here's quick mockup of how it could be in the preferences.



And the result would be:



Thanks, Wyatt
This is a neat idea but it doesn't cover the original FR... Some of us want to move the fader by clicking and dragging the faders themselves And we want that to snap to the defined steps! I could set it to 0.1db and forget it for good.
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:50 AM   #37
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Quote:
This is a neat idea but it doesn't cover the original FR... Some of us want to move the fader by clicking and dragging the faders themselves And we want that to snap to the defined steps! I could set it to 0.1db and forget it for good.
Midi controllers must also be taken in count. Linear 128 midi steps give 0,7 dB per step (with -80 to +10 dB I think) which is way insufficient for values close to 0dB (without talking about the fact that on a midi controller, about 1mm fader move gives 1 midi step...) and way uselessly precise for lower levels. The other option is to set the scale of the meters in a non-linear way but then its behaviour is to strange that I wouldn't use it anyway.
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:37 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamWathan View Post
This is a neat idea but it doesn't cover the original FR... Some of us want to move the fader by clicking and dragging the faders themselves And we want that to snap to the defined steps! I could set it to 0.1db and forget it for good.
Ok, on the original FR, when I first joined this forum, I requested the way I thought of, and it ended up being marked as a duplicate: (See Here). I've really been pushing this request, and helped in getting it elevated. So, I didn't mean to hijack this thread with something different. Maybe we could have a one size fits all. Here's a new mockup I did this morning that would include defined steps on moving, or dragging the fader, leaving out the click above the line part. What do you think? See below



Of course this would all be optional settings

Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:51 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post
Ok, on the original FR, when I first joined this forum, I requested the way I thought of, and it ended up being marked as a duplicate: (See Here). I've really been pushing this request, and helped in getting it elevated. So, I didn't mean to hijack this thread with something different. Maybe we could have a one size fits all. Here's a new mockup I did this morning that would include defined steps on moving, or dragging the fader, leaving out the click above the line part. What do you think? See below



Of course this would all be optional settings

Thanks, Wyatt
That covers everything I would want perfectly, love it! I like your idea too though man so don't necessarily remove it from your mockup! I bet I would end up using it a lot once I tried it, I just thought it would make sense to be able to snap the faders overall as well, not just when using that method of adjusting their value!
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:01 AM   #40
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any news on this?
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