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Old 03-30-2010, 12:23 AM   #1
tyler477
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Default Reaper midi sync latency compensation setting?

Hey guys, I'm new to the forums but have been using reaper for about a year or so now.

Anyways I recently scored a tr-727 so I synced it up to my TC konnekt 8 which I ran "miditest" on (if you don't know what it is google it... pretty interesting!) and it says my midi 'send' time is less than a millisecond.
I then routed the output of the 727 into a channel running 44.1 with 2.6 ms latency.

When I try to sync the output of the 727 to the click in reaper it is off by a considerable amount ... I was wondering where the setting is to compensate for the latency? My immediate fix was to nudge everything else in the project over to sync with it but I know there must be a better way.

otherwise it syncs rock solid as long as I start from the very beginning of the track!

My plan is to use the 727 to sync my arpeggiator from the polysix, and also trigger my ms-20 for some pretty awesome quick mixes!

thanks in advance for the help... I know it's probably a stupid answer!
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Old 03-30-2010, 02:21 AM   #2
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There's 'MIDI output offset' for every single MIDI output. A positive value delays the MIDI stream by X milliseconds, whereas a negative value makes the MIDI to play X milliseconds ahead.

I believe a negative value is the most usable: external gear usually has some latency which you want to compensate for - the MIDI stream needs to play a little bit ahead of main audio output to actually play in sync with it.

However, there's a limitation in 'MIDI output offset'. A negative offset of about 20 milliseconds seems to be the maximum negative offset. The reason behind this is unclear to me.

If more than 20 ms negative offset is needed, it's possible to use ReaInsert and it's plugin delay compensation. This is what I do. It's possible to have a negative offset of several seconds.

I think this is actually a very important question, but still I wasn't able to find the answer... I had to figure it out by myself. There should be a tutorial on how to sync external gear with reaper, IMHO.
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Old 03-30-2010, 05:38 PM   #3
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Default Midi Latency Issues

Zenguru... So... when I'm playing midi drums right... the latency issue makes so that i hear the sound just after striking the keyboard... which makes it considerably hard to play on beat... not to mention difficulty singing while hearing my self through headphones... So To the point that I dont even like listening to myself while singing... So as far as a tutorial on how to fix this... by any chance... could you possibly give a step by step on that process for me man???... Would Be Greatly Appreciated..................

Also... (and i dont know if this is even related) when i bounce the midi into audio... a latency issue makes so that the Audio track records early.. so i have to shift the track to the right...

Please help
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:03 PM   #4
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Zenguru... So... when I'm playing midi drums right... the latency issue makes so that i hear the sound just after striking the keyboard... which makes it considerably hard to play on beat... not to mention difficulty singing while hearing my self through headphones... So To the point that I dont even like listening to myself while singing... So as far as a tutorial on how to fix this... by any chance... could you possibly give a step by step on that process for me man???... Would Be Greatly Appreciated..................

Also... (and i dont know if this is even related) when i bounce the midi into audio... a latency issue makes so that the Audio track records early.. so i have to shift the track to the right...

Please help
I'd appreciate you not stealing my thread thank you!
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:14 PM   #5
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There's 'MIDI output offset' for every single MIDI output. A positive value delays the MIDI stream by X milliseconds, whereas a negative value makes the MIDI to play X milliseconds ahead.

I believe a negative value is the most usable: external gear usually has some latency which you want to compensate for - the MIDI stream needs to play a little bit ahead of main audio output to actually play in sync with it.

However, there's a limitation in 'MIDI output offset'. A negative offset of about 20 milliseconds seems to be the maximum negative offset. The reason behind this is unclear to me.

If more than 20 ms negative offset is needed, it's possible to use ReaInsert and it's plugin delay compensation. This is what I do. It's possible to have a negative offset of several seconds.

I think this is actually a very important question, but still I wasn't able to find the answer... I had to figure it out by myself. There should be a tutorial on how to sync external gear with reaper, IMHO.
Zenguru tank you for your quick response!

I found that offset function when I was trying to figure it out myself yesterday ... but here is the odd thing... I tried recording the 727 with the offset at 0 and then when I put the offset at -8 and +8 and it recorded at the same place every time! the offset function didn't seem to do anything, is this just my mistake? Please! this is really beginning to annoy me!
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:27 AM   #6
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I found that offset function when I was trying to figure it out myself yesterday ... but here is the odd thing... I tried recording the 727 with the offset at 0 and then when I put the offset at -8 and +8 and it recorded at the same place every time! the offset function didn't seem to do anything, is this just my mistake?
I would suggest you start/stop playback once after changing the offset. Some of these settings seem to need this in order to come into effect. Try with extreme settings, +100ms for example, so that you can be sure the setting is actually doing something.

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Please! this is really beginning to annoy me!
I've been there... it took me hours to get everything in sync. I hope I can help you and others with similar problems I had. Just let me know how it goes
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:45 AM   #7
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Ok I just tried the offset setting again... I tried -20 and +20 and nothing changes!! I record from the beginning as well, I know that it needs to start from 0:00 in order to sync properly.

If not for this stupid problem it is rock solid!! Like I said I can work around the problem by nudging all my wav files to sync manually... but this is a pain!! why does the offset do nothing? what am I missing?
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Old 03-31-2010, 03:47 AM   #8
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tyler, what do mean by 'otherwise it syncs rock solid as long as I start from the very beginning of the track!'? I read your first post again and wasn't 100% sure about that one...

How much in ms is the 727 out of sync? Do you use MIDI clock or just send MIDI notes to the 727?

BTW, are you monitoring through Reaper or using a zero-latency configuration? I don't know if it has anything to do with the problem here, but I'm just curious.
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Old 03-31-2010, 09:11 AM   #9
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Default uh...

thx for the help
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:47 AM   #10
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thx for the help
No problem!

Well I don't want to be rude but I think you should start a new thread and describe your problem a little bit more in detail. For example what you mean by MIDI drums... external module or a VST plugin controlled from external MIDI keyboard? Thanks.
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:51 PM   #11
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Default ???

how do i start a new thread... just signed up
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Old 04-01-2010, 05:38 AM   #12
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how do i start a new thread... just signed up
DUDE! you just tried to steal my thread again with a question about how to post a thread!!! jeez you are a noob. look around and find where it says "new post" or something.



Sorry I didn't specify the 727 is running as a slave to midi clock from reaper, I say it is rock solid because it is very stable! it is just about 2-3 ms off from the click.... am I honestly the only one with this problem on reaper??
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Old 04-01-2010, 05:53 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by tyler477 View Post
DUDE! you just tried to steal my thread again with a question about how to post a thread!!! jeez you are a noob. look around and find where it says "new post" or something.



Sorry I didn't specify the 727 is running as a slave to midi clock from reaper, I say it is rock solid because it is very stable! it is just about 2-3 ms off from the click.... am I honestly the only one with this problem on reaper??
Excuse my rudeness....tyler is it 727 external you talking about
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:38 AM   #14
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dude your a jerk man
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:31 AM   #15
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Yeah Tyler you should be kinder to the newb. Everyone is a newb once!!!
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Old 04-04-2010, 09:28 PM   #16
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wow... still no solution to this problem??? I thought reaper support would be more informative than this!! It's like no one has synced a drum machinne to reaper before??? sheesh
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Old 04-04-2010, 11:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatDane View Post
the latency issue makes so that i hear the sound just after striking the keyboard... which makes it considerably hard to play on beat...
Go to preferences > audio > device, if you are on mac there should
be an option to "request block size" where u simply put the buffer
size of 128 or 64 samples. If you are using ASIO on a PC, there should
be an option to select the proper driver of your sound card, than
there should be a "control panel" button which opens the latency
settings of the driver, where you can enter data either in samples
(128 or 64 should do fine), or in milliseconds (2ms-5ms should do),
depending on the driver.

You can post a new thread by going to Q&A, Tips, Tricks and Howto, and
click on the top left button called New Thread.


(click here if you wish)

e
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Old 04-05-2010, 06:08 AM   #18
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wow... still no solution to this problem??? I thought reaper support would be more informative than this!! It's like no one has synced a drum machinne to reaper before??? sheesh
Go to Options > Preferences > MIDI Devices. On the bottom there's three check boxes: Send all-notes-off, Reset pitch and Reset CC. Uncheck all of them. This should reduce the latency, but it's probably not enough...

I suggest you to sequence your 727 from Reaper. Instead of sending MIDI clock you just send MIDI note-on/off messages. You need to use ReaInsert to minimize latency. I connected a 727 this way and it works fine.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:48 PM   #19
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Go to Options > Preferences > MIDI Devices. On the bottom there's three check boxes: Send all-notes-off, Reset pitch and Reset CC. Uncheck all of them. This should reduce the latency, but it's probably not enough...

I suggest you to sequence your 727 from Reaper. Instead of sending MIDI clock you just send MIDI note-on/off messages. You need to use ReaInsert to minimize latency. I connected a 727 this way and it works fine.
This would be fine in theory, but I like using the hardware sequencer... as I have it also syncing my polysix and triggering my ms-20.... I like the dedicated hardware buttons at my disposal

I unchecked all the boxes you mentioned... will see how much it helps.


Honestly it should be an easy setting tweak inside reaper... because if I just manually nudge my tracks over it is in sync... there must be a VST that just offsets the entire mix by a certain amount....
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Old 04-08-2010, 01:17 AM   #20
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Default Reaper is Master and 727 is Slave?

Sorry to jump in on this late, but I've had pretty good luck syncing Reaper to the AW4416 Yamaha DAW and also to the Yamaha Rm1x Sequencer/ReMixer.

My question is this. If Reaper is the Master and putting out MTC why are you adjusting IT'S settings? When Reaper was Master to my Rm1x I went into the Rm1x's settings and adjusted my MTC offset in that box, not in Reaper. Does your 727 have offsets in it's MIDI utility menu? It should.
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Old 04-08-2010, 02:26 AM   #21
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This would be fine in theory, but I like using the hardware sequencer... as I have it also syncing my polysix and triggering my ms-20.... I like the dedicated hardware buttons at my disposal
Oh yes, I understand... luckily my polysix is MIDIfied

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I unchecked all the boxes you mentioned... will see how much it helps.
Ok, tell me how it goes.
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:27 AM   #22
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My question is this. If Reaper is the Master and putting out MTC why are you adjusting IT'S settings? When Reaper was Master to my Rm1x I went into the Rm1x's settings and adjusted my MTC offset in that box, not in Reaper.
TR-727 doesn't accept MTC, only MIDI clock. If it would, there wouldn't be problem because a possible latency could be compensated by using ReaInsert and MTC generator on a MIDI track.

Quote:
Does your 727 have offsets in it's MIDI utility menu? It should.
Oldish MIDI devices usually have quite a limited MIDI implementation. Actually many of the newer devices don't have this option. 727 doesn't have it either.

When the device is late in relation to Reaper... to sync with the first bar, ie. immediately after pressing play in Reaper, you would have to set the device to start BEFORE it receives any MIDI clock information... this is not possible I'm afraid. You could probably set it to sync with the second bar, but you would have to adjust the offset if you change tempo, I assume.

When the device plays ahead in relation to Reaper, the offset option would do the trick of course.
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:47 AM   #23
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One possible solution is to record the analog sync signal from the 727 to Reaper, as audio. It could then be played back to 727 and polysix. The offset of the sync signal can be adjusted freely in Reaper. It's timing is also much tighter than that of any MIDI clock or MTC. I have never tried this though, so I don't know how well it works.

I just might try this when I get home... have to work now (as you can probably see).
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Old 04-08-2010, 04:52 AM   #24
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zenguru, the offset is nearly perfect now that I've de-selected those boxes, it's still of by a very small amount, but I think I'm just going to live with it.... might try the reainsert option though also....
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Old 04-08-2010, 10:07 AM   #25
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zenguru, the offset is nearly perfect now that I've de-selected those boxes, it's still of by a very small amount, but I think I'm just going to live with it.... might try the reainsert option though also....
Nice to hear. You are able to reduce the remaining offset by 20ms or so by setting the MIDI output offset to -30 for example, if you haven't already done so. That gives you the maximum negative offset... at least that's the maximum I'm able to get, 20ms.

I opened a thread about this limitation, but didn't receive any confirmation from any user. I assume people don't use MIDI clock that much. Here's the thread: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=55280
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Old 04-08-2010, 06:51 PM   #26
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Nice to hear. You are able to reduce the remaining offset by 20ms or so by setting the MIDI output offset to -30 for example, if you haven't already done so. That gives you the maximum negative offset... at least that's the maximum I'm able to get, 20ms.

I opened a thread about this limitation, but didn't receive any confirmation from any user. I assume people don't use MIDI clock that much. Here's the thread: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=55280
zenguru.... I tried to adjust the offset... but the problem is that it doesn;''t affect the midi clock, I tried +/- 20 ms and neither affects the latency of the clock.

Have you ever tried sending midi clock out of reaper? I don't think we are on the same page.
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:16 AM   #27
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zenguru.... I tried to adjust the offset... but the problem is that it doesn;''t affect the midi clock, I tried +/- 20 ms and neither affects the latency of the clock.

Have you ever tried sending midi clock out of reaper? I don't think we are on the same page.
On which page are you?

Yes, I have tried sending MIDI clock out of Reaper. To the exactly same device, TR-727. Positive values work fine, negative values work only up to 20 or so.

You might not be able to notice a 20ms change in offset easily, if the total offset is large enough. How are you measuring the offset anyway? I was confused with the time display at the bottom of the window, until I realized that I must change the setting to "seconds" or "minutes + seconds". Otherwise it shows the selected time in beats or something, which is not too informative for offset adjusting purposes.

Go ahead and set the offset to +1000ms or more. A delay of one second is easy to spot. If you even then aren't able to notice any change in offset, there really must be something wrong.
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Old 04-09-2010, 01:45 AM   #28
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ahhh! the offset is working!! I just wasn't noticing the small increments, yes -20 ms is not enough at all... I just added 472.5 ms and then it lines up with the next click perfect! thanks! problem solved!
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Old 04-09-2010, 02:11 AM   #29
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ahhh! the offset is working!! I just wasn't noticing the small increments, yes -20 ms is not enough at all... I just added 472.5 ms and then it lines up with the next click perfect! thanks! problem solved!
Great! But as I mentioned earlier, you will have to adjust the offset if you change the tempo. Well that's quite acceptable...
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Old 04-17-2010, 10:55 AM   #30
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Default higher negative value than -20.00ms

Hi just want to mention that I found out that incresing buffer size to 1024 samples on my TC konnekt 8 does make it possible to make greater negative values than -20.00ms, I have spend so much time trying figure out how to get my mpc1000 to sync to reaper without succes but at last I got it to work this way, and it seems to be very steady now!
If started in the middle of a song it is important to start right on a measure to get the mpc1000 to lock right into sync ....(JJOSXL2)
Now it does work perfect with -45.00ms.
At lower buffer size than 1024 it does not work here.
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Old 04-19-2010, 02:19 AM   #31
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Hi just want to mention that I found out that incresing buffer size to 1024 samples on my TC konnekt 8 does make it possible to make greater negative values than -20.00ms, I have spend so much time trying figure out how to get my mpc1000 to sync to reaper without succes but at last I got it to work this way, and it seems to be very steady now!
If started in the middle of a song it is important to start right on a measure to get the mpc1000 to lock right into sync ....(JJOSXL2)
Now it does work perfect with -45.00ms.
At lower buffer size than 1024 it does not work here.
Rasmus
Hi Rasmus! Thank you for sharing this.

I assume this must be a bug. I don't see any reason why the buffer size should matter. And even though the MIDI latency issue can be "solved" by using an enormous buffer size, it introduces another problem called audio latency.

BTW, I use MIDI Timecode Generator to sync my MPC1000 with Reaper. You can add it to an empty track from Insert > SMPTE LTC/MTC Timecode Generator. Then press CTRL+F2 and choose MTC and 30fps for a frame rate. Set MPC1000 to receive MTC and also set the frame rate to 30fps. Adjust MIDI offset in Reaper, in this case a positive value is needed. This works perfectly.
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:24 AM   #32
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Greetings everyone, first post here

I found this thread very interesting as i happen to try to slave my TR-707 to Reaper, but am experiencing the same latency problem...
Now what I don't understand is why i can manage to slave the 707 perfectly in sync with Cubase SX3 whithout using any kind of latency compensation, whereas in Reaper i would need to play around with this (very annoying in case of tempo changes...).
I'm using exactly the same buffer settings on my soundcard (FA-101) in both DAW's.
Is there maybe somekind of inherent midi latency in Reaper that would need to be adressed by the developper? Considering Cubase's bad reputation when it comes to Midi syncing external gear, it's just weird that it works without effort in Cubase but not in Reaper...
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:22 AM   #33
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Hello.
I'm still evaluating Reaper, and I feel it's a great piece of software, but I have exactly the same problem with midi clock.

I need to clock sync a Alesis SR-18 drum machine (running in pattern mode) using Reaper as master clock.
The problem is:
- if the song starts from the very beginning, than Alesis is perfectly in sync
- if the song starts from the middle, on the first beat of a measure, then Alesis is out of sync (it's late of about 2/3 of beat).

Initially I thought that it was because in the first case Reaper sends a midi "start" command, while from the middle of the song it sends a midi "continue" command, and Alesis could be out of sync if I reposition the song start marker in Reaper. So I tried to change "continue" to "start" command using MidiOx, but the result is the same: the drum machine is late if the song is started from the middle, while it's in sync if the song is started from the start.

I really can't figure out why. Using a global option to change clock delay is not a way to go for me because I need to switch quickly to different projects/songs live (and also, in this case what happens when the song is starting from the beginning?!? Still have to try...)

Any suggestions?

Thank you.
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Old 08-26-2010, 04:49 PM   #34
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This HAS to be a bug with Reaper. I tried synching a client's computer running Ableton with mine running Reaper using mine as the master. All was well if it started from the beginning, but starting anywhere else resulted in incorrect synch. This was with v3.66. I went back to Cubase and all was well.
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Old 08-26-2010, 05:56 PM   #35
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yes i have seen & reported this & yes it seems we are a limited few that use things that need external midi sync!

i have a MPD26 with the MPC note repeat built in

i'm just about to go play with it at a buffer of 1024 just to see if i can get it to sync but that buffer setting is to high for me personally

yes, something is very wrong with reapers midi clock out

i made a bug report & it has 2 votes http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2738

if anyone has useful info to add to that bug report please add it!!

Subz

PS, to the OP, please try to have more patience with the Noobs!! you did act like a Jerk!

Last edited by Subz; 08-26-2010 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:59 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by bazzano View Post
Hello.
I need to clock sync a Alesis SR-18 drum machine (running in pattern mode) using Reaper as master clock.
The problem is:
- if the song starts from the very beginning, than Alesis is perfectly in sync
- if the song starts from the middle, on the first beat of a measure, then Alesis is out of sync (it's late of about 2/3 of beat).

Initially I thought that it was because in the first case Reaper sends a midi "start" command, while from the middle of the song it sends a midi "continue" command, and Alesis could be out of sync if I reposition the song start marker in Reaper. So I tried to change "continue" to "start" command using MidiOx, but the result is the same: the drum machine is late if the song is started from the middle, while it's in sync if the song is started from the start.
I got the exact same problem, with my SR18 as well, when Reaper is sending the clock. It starts being desync as the song progress.

With SR18 sending the clock to Reaper it's ok, but I can't use it that way. Alesis SR18 can only do SPP sync, so there must be an issue with SPP sync and Reaper if it worked well with Cubase as someone said previously in this thread.

If true, this is a major bug.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:27 PM   #37
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Hey I thought I would dig up this old thread and ask if there has been a resolution to this problem!?


I see others have the same issue.

I recently upgraded my midi interface to an Edirol UM-880 which claims to have a "time stamping" feature (don't ask me) it actually seemed to help overall with general timing issues and almost works around the glaring glitch that happens with midi sends in loop mode (randomly just doesn't loop).

maybe one of the many midi updates as of late has corrected these issues that cubase seems to not have?

P.S. I love Reaper, thanks to all that contributed to this thread, sorry to the noob, I was just grouchy
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Old 02-22-2014, 12:13 PM   #38
ehasting
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This is an old post - but it seems to me that the problem described can be solved by going in to

Preference > Audio > Recording, and then adjust the "Input Manual Offset" by the amount of samples seen after a record that is not matching. I.e if a record shows 250 samples later then the midi note, add 250 into the samples field and save.
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Old 03-20-2014, 11:58 AM   #39
Chvad SB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehasting View Post
This is an old post - but it seems to me that the problem described can be solved by going in to

Preference > Audio > Recording, and then adjust the "Input Manual Offset" by the amount of samples seen after a record that is not matching. I.e if a record shows 250 samples later then the midi note, add 250 into the samples field and save.

you'd think that would work, but alas, it does not.
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Old 10-27-2020, 06:15 PM   #40
Opcode 7
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Hello all, I would like to follow up on this and see if anyone knows how to solve a related problem. I've never been so frustrated in my life, it seems like this is a REAPER problem that so many have talked about going all the way back to 2007...

It seems specifically related to MIDI Clock Output Latency. Which is important, because it's how the patterns on the 303 are triggered to be played. You can't send MIDI notes into the 303 and play it like a normal MIDI Synth. My other external synths have no issues with REPAER on that front when I use ReaInsert.

I am trying to get my Behringer TD-3 to start at exactly 1.0.0 / Project Start, along with my VST drums.

It seems impossible! It appears to be a latency from the MIDI Clock Out signal. No setting anywhere affects the red box I have drawn around the highlighted yellow latency in the Recorded Audio Clip.

- Disable PDC Latency = No Change
- Recording Stereo / Stereo Latency Compensated = No Change
- Adjusting ReaInsert "Additional Delay Compensation" to TENS OF THOUSANDS of positive / negative samples = No Change
- Configure MIDI Output "Offset Output to Device" = No Change
- Playback Time Offset = No Change
- Testing all of the above with an audio interface 1024 Buffer Size vs 64 Buffer Size = No Change
- Resetting all my REAPER settings = No Change

WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!?! PLEASE HELP JUSTIN I...WE BEG OF YOU. I would literally DO ANYTHING.



The only thing that makes a difference, is disabling the MIDI Clock Out, and using some hacky JS to Generate a Custom MIDI Clock. Even then, that only allows me to delay the start of the recording, and not negatively adjust it to be on time with the very beginning of the project.

I'm aware a solution is delaying ALL OTHER TRACKS EXCEPT THE 303, but when working in a project with 10+ external synths, and tons of other external effects, and lots of other audio and midi tracks, that's like a NIGHTMARE! Agh Why cant we just adjust a single midi port to be negative?!?!

EDIT: So I was able to align the audio by setting the "Output Manual Offset" to 115 ms in the REAPER Recording Preferences. As seen here, and now the audio is at the start of the recording.

What I am afraid of, and what I don't know -- is will this setting affect my other external audio effects, synthesizers, and midi ports? I use the MOTU Micro Lite, which has 5 MIDI Ports. I really only want this +115 ms on PORT #5, or on a specific audio in, and not my whole audio interface. Does anyone know of an effective way to isolate it to my MIDI PORT #5, or just a single audio track?!

EDIT 2 : When I disable Ozone 9 on my Master Chain, then everything gets out of whack and that 115 needs to be recalculated....wtf And, when I added the Ozone 9 Low End Focus VST (which adds a TON of samples to the PDC), everything is permanently out of whack again, even when disabled. It has to be completely removed from the chain. And the PDC settings seemingly dont get me back on time / change anything? Whats going on here? Is this expected, adding VSTS and needing to recalculate this 115 MS offset?!

Last edited by Opcode 7; 10-27-2020 at 08:40 PM.
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