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Old 06-05-2010, 01:40 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
What's odd about this is that even my totally slow, anemic Core Duo original MBP still uses about 10% CPU in this task. Granted, at 1440x900, but still this thing is SLOW. Using fullscreen on a C2D imac at 1920x1280, it uses ~5%. What the hell is going on, I want to know? :/
I agree, it's very odd; I gather for the majority of people Reaper runs like a beast!

If there is any info I can give you that might shed some light, then I will.

@soundartalex, I'm *kind of* relieved that I'm not the only one who has the increased problems after having a project open for a long time. Not happy you have the problem though of course :P.

Could this have anything to do with denormalisation in plug-ins, or something similar? It doesn't seem like the problem to me (and I have the reduce denormalisation preference enabled) but I'm not completely clued up on these things. It's hard to separate plug-ins from a big mixing project.

If I get time today I'll try and reproduce the issue with a large project running for a while, quitting and re-opening. Then I'll try and replicate the cpu use with just Cockos plugs and again with no plugs and see what happens.

Last edited by timlloyd; 06-05-2010 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 06-06-2010, 12:27 AM   #42
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fyi after some testing in the issue thread it looks like Mac OS X activity monitor shows Reaper using twice the processing power that Reaper claims it's using in its internal performance meter (i.e if reaper says 20%, it's really 40%)
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Old 06-06-2010, 02:47 AM   #43
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fyi after some testing in the issue thread it looks like Mac OS X activity monitor shows Reaper using twice the processing power that Reaper claims it's using in its internal performance meter (i.e if reaper says 20%, it's really 40%)
Same here.
With one stereo track and no plugs, when zooming during playback, apple monitor activity can jump to 65%

Macbook intel 10.5.8
Reaper version 3.52
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Old 06-06-2010, 05:41 AM   #44
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That is because you have 2 cores in your processor and the activity monitor goes up to 200% instead of 100%. Reaper seems to compensate for this and still give a value out of 100%.

If activity monitor says you are using 80% of your CPU, it means 80% of one core which is really 40%of all your CPU power, which is the number Reaper will show...
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Old 06-06-2010, 05:52 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by AdamWathan View Post
That is because you have 2 cores in your processor and the activity monitor goes up to 200% instead of 100%. Reaper seems to compensate for this and still give a value out of 100%.

If activity monitor says you are using 80% of your CPU, it means 80% of one core which is really 40%of all your CPU power, which is the number Reaper will show...
Thank you for the explanation.
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Old 06-06-2010, 05:53 AM   #46
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That's a good point Adam, not sure how I've overlooked that......

But still the GUI is a problem and the cpu use is higher than it should be.

That still means that my post in the issue tracker is revealing about OSX performance. It's still using twice as much cpu as Logic even before audio and effects are added.

It's worrying that Reaper uses around 30% of the processing power of BOTH cores when there is no audio processing happening. That's a very heavy interface.

Cheers for the heads-up about that.....oops
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Old 06-06-2010, 06:25 AM   #47
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An idle empty Reaper project with the Reaper window focused gives me about 6% CPU here, 7% when I open the mixer (these are Reaper CPU numbers, activity monitor shows double for reason I explained before).

A fairly normal sized project (~50 tracks) is showing about 19% idle but 55% with the mixer open! That's not even playing stuff back! I never noticed this before because I don't use the mixer but that is a crazy amount of CPU for a program that is sitting totally idle. I don't think I could even mix with the mixer open without running out of CPU.

This is on a 2009 MBP, 2.53ghz Core 2 Duo with 4gb of RAM, running on the notebook itself, not external display, so 1440 x 900
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:08 AM   #48
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Yeah this is exactly the problem.........I can't mix with it at all atm. With a reasonable sized project not in playback, opening the mixer makes even the menubar menus slow. The whole application just can't keep up with itself with the mixer open.

Try this........it's interesting.

Create a new project and insert 30 empty tracks with no items and no effects.
Set VU meter update frequency to 20 and keep the project sitting idle.

Check cpu use with and without mixer open:
- without mixer - around 2.5%
- with mixer - around 20%

Change VU meter update frequency to 1
cpu use:
- without mixer - around 2%
- with mixer - around 2.5%

Keep mixer open and change vu frequency back to 20 and watch the cpu use rise dramatically once again.

This is with 3.52pre12

-------------------------------

This seems to suggest that the whole mixer window's refresh rate is linked to the vu meter update frequency, which seems TOTALLY unnecessary and could be the cause of the problem as related to the mixer.

hmmmm............

(laptop spec: 2008 17" MBP (internal screen res 1920x1200) 2.5GHz 2GB RAM 7200rpm internal HD - OSX 10.6.3)

If a few other people can try this and confirm the results then I'll make a separate bug report in the issue tracker. It could explain the mixer issue, but perhaps not the cpu use and slow GUI elsewhere when the mixer is closed.

Last edited by timlloyd; 06-06-2010 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:23 AM   #49
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Yeah VU refresh is definitely huge draw on CPU. Even with no mixer open, just zoom in and out vertically on the arrange window. In the project I'm working on now, zooming out far enough that I can't see the meters in the arrange window gives me back 20% of my CPU. Sucks because I need those meters! :/
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Old 06-06-2010, 08:05 AM   #50
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I feel I'm mistaken in my assumption that mixer refresh is linked to vu refresh.............it's going to be just that the meter refresh is still happening even when they're not moving.
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Old 06-06-2010, 08:27 AM   #51
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Yeah, even still though, if the meters in the arrange are visible and thus already forcing the screen to refresh however often, making the mixer visible still adds a very significant amount of CPU. I would imagine this shouldn't happen since the screen is already refreshing for the VU meters in the arrange window? I am probably wrong though.

Hopefully there's something that can be done to improve this, I feel like my CPU shouldn't be struggling as much as it is with these projects... Maybe it's time for the 27" i7 iMac I've been oogling for months, haha...
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Old 06-06-2010, 09:27 AM   #52
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There kind of has to be something that can be done............it's just going to be because the way it's being done now isn't "good enough" - no disrespect to Cockos......but it's been proved to be a far lesser issue in other apps.

Could it be something to do with the way in which all of the VU and background graphics in the mcp are stretched to fit the size the user wants? In Logic and Pro Tools (I think) the size of the VU graphics etc. isn't adjustable. Constantly stretching the interface graphics would surely cause some amount of cpu hit depending on how it's implemented, I've no idea how much though.

I think they are looking into it, so I'll try to refrain from making any more ill-educated guesses as to what the problems are and await a reply :P
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Old 06-06-2010, 09:36 AM   #53
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Few days ago, feeling Reaper gui going slow and fan running often, i take a look to OSX monitor activity and realized i was using the ppc version !! (wrong download file ah ah ;-)

Macbook intel 10.5.8
Reaper version 3.52
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Old 06-06-2010, 10:50 AM   #54
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i was working on a project today and got audio dropouts all over the place until i lowered the vu refresh to 10hz, then i was able to work without dropouts,

Yeah it sucks, but I'm sure Cockos will get to the bottom of it - but *maybe* the beta tag should be put back on? I was under the impression that Reaper was more solid on osx than it's turning out to be... just a thought.

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Old 06-06-2010, 12:31 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daverich View Post
*maybe* the beta tag should be put back on? I was under the impression that Reaper was more solid on osx than it's turning out to be... just a thought.
Yeah, I think so. Honestly when the beta tag disappeared I really hoped it would be like that. But atm Reaper still isn't really usable for me. And that's a pity.
I'd love to see that issue fixed soon. Cause honestly I don't wanna switch to win!

Please help, devs!
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Old 06-06-2010, 03:12 PM   #56
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Quote:
Try this........it's interesting.

Create a new project and insert 30 empty tracks with no items and no effects.
Set VU meter update frequency to 20 and keep the project sitting idle.

Check cpu use with and without mixer open:
- without mixer - around 2.5%
- with mixer - around 20%

Change VU meter update frequency to 1
cpu use:
- without mixer - around 2%
- with mixer - around 2.5%

Keep mixer open and change vu frequency back to 20 and watch the cpu use rise dramatically once again.

This is with 3.52pre12

I did that, 30 emty tracks.

Version 3.52:
VU meter update: 20 without mixer: 17% with mixer: 39%
VU meter update: 12 without mixer: 15-16% with mixer: 28%

Version 3.53 Pre13:
VU meter update: 20 without mixer: 15,5% with mixer: 21%
VU meter update :12 without mixer: 14,8% with mixer 18%


Another thing bothers me though.
Timlloyd have a 2,5%/20%/VU 20Hz performance ratio on his setup, - qoute: laptop spec: 2008 17" MBP (internal screen res 1920x1200) 2.5GHz 2GB RAM 7200rpm internal HD - OSX 10.6.3.

My setup is a 27" iMac 3.06GHz, 4 MB Ram and OSX 10.6.3 and I get values as high as 17%/39%/VU 20Hz, - strange.

Update: Well, I might have found part of the answer. My results relate to a I/O buffer size set to 128 samples. So I`ve made the same test at different buffersizes, - still VU 20Hz/Reaper Version 3.53 Pre13:

128 samples: 15,5%/20,5%
256 - : 09,3%/15,0%
512 - : 06,1%/12,0%
1024 - : 06,0%/11,4%

Seems that buffersizes over 512 do not have any significant effect.

But still I don´t get Timlloyds 2,5% without mixer, - which buffersize do you use?


To Justin: Version 3.53 Pre 13 seems to improve on the difference between "with mixer" and "without mixer" performance, - nice work But hopefully you can get it even better... (Well, - I´m coming from Logic, which in this department works very well).
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Old 06-06-2010, 10:18 PM   #57
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Default v3.53pre13

now with version v3.53pre13 I have only 3-4% more CPU usage with the Mixer!!
my buffersize is 2048 - it was only working with this size with earlier versions. Have to try different buffersizes now...
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:19 PM   #58
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Curious how 3.53pre14 will look to everybody
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:56 AM   #59
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Hey

Just tried the pre14 and the CPU amount has dropped significantly

50 empty tracks now plays at 10-15% of cpu.Before it was 35-55%

Well done Cockos!
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:01 AM   #60
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pre14, vu 20, buffersize 250, internal performance meter:

30 empty tracks, all selected: 11,5%
with open mixer: 14,5%

30 empty tracks, none selected: 10,5%
with open mixer: 13,5%

empty project: 3,3%
with open mixer: 3,8%
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:12 AM   #61
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Thnx guys,
looks You are up to something...
the difference between the cpu load on mixer/nomixer is now reduced to 1 to 2 %, great!
i still have 15 to 19 % cpu load on a idle 24trx with mixer open session.
and if i start About Reaper it goes up to 33% ???
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Old 06-07-2010, 06:05 AM   #62
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Independent of the current OSX optimizations that are under way, please note that Reaper is designed to be relatively wasteful of CPU in low-load situations, in order to scale well when the load increases. So CPU usage may appear higher than expected in empty, small, or idle sessions, but CPU usage will not increase linearly as the project complexity increases.

In other words, if a project with 10 tracks uses X percent of your CPU, a project with 20 tracks will use less than 2X percent.
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Old 06-07-2010, 09:31 AM   #63
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Thanks Schwa, that's an interesting and useful piece of info for us!
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Old 06-07-2010, 10:15 AM   #64
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For purposes of graphics testing, I disable the audio device when stopped (Prefs/Audio), and make sure no tracks are record armed.. At this point the only REAPER thread that should be running is the UI -- the audio system should be completely dormant (the meters do still run, though).
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:42 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Curious how 3.53pre14 will look to everybody
Made a quick test:

On 3.53pre13 I got this at 20 Hz VU, - without/with mixer, - 30 emty tracks:
128 samples: 15,5%/20,5%
256 samples: 9,3%/15,0%
512 samples: 6,1%/12,0%

On 3.53pre14 I get this, - same test conditions as above:
128 samples: 10,0%/12,4%
256 samples: 6,2%/ 8,8%
512 samples: 4,0%/ 6,6%

The above is measured on Reapers performance meter



I also compared a 30-emty-tracks/256-samples-project in both Logic and Reaper.
Playing: Logic 15,7% Reaper 16,8%
Idle: Logic 6,4% Reaper 8,4%

Scrolling puts stress on the CPU in both Logic and REaper: Both went up around 60%.

I also made another test between Reaper 3.53pre14 and Logic 8.0.2:
Exact same audiofiles on 24 tracks, same plugins (1 verb, 13 comps/eqs) none of them build-in Logic or Reaper plugins. Buffersize: 256.

Logic 8.0.2: with mixer: 58%, without mixer: 53%, using 266,7 MB RAM
Reaper 3.53pre14: with mixer: 70%, without mixer: 60%, using 200,2 MB RAM

Guess I should mention: The 3.53pre14 played back with out any glitches.

The above is measured on OSX Activity Monitor, (doubles the readings compared to Reapers PM)


These are just some quick tests, but so far so good....


Justin, - you made improvements at approximately 33% in less than a day, - wonder what´s going to happen tomorrow
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:51 PM   #66
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Justin, - you made improvements at approximately 33% in less than a day
Congrats to that
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Old 06-08-2010, 02:55 AM   #67
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Bit of a discrepancy between 32 and 64 bit

32 bit :
30 empty tracks
Mixer open
12% CPU (Reaper Monitor)

64 bit :
30 empty tracks
Mixer open
20% CPU (Reaper Monitor)
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:09 AM   #68
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I can't seem to figure out where to download the "pre14" version. Can someone help me out?
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:40 AM   #69
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I can't seem to figure out where to download the "pre14" version. Can someone help me out?
It's a bit hidden, I think they don't want 'the big public' to know.

http://forum.cockos.com/index.php

Look for the "REAPER Pre-Release Discussion" forum, and in that forum for the "REAPER pre-release builds" topic. You can find the link in that post.

(btw latest version is RC2)
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Old 06-09-2010, 04:43 AM   #70
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Please be aware when comparing to logic that ONLY the record armed tracks in Logic use the latency set in your buffer settings,all tracks other than any record armed are running at 1024 samples which is why peopel think logic runs so well when they say 'I'm running at 64 samples and look at the performance'

To get an even comparison you should set Reaper to run at 1024 .

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Old 06-09-2010, 06:50 AM   #71
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Please be aware when comparing to logic that ONLY the record armed tracks in Logic use the latency set in your buffer settings,all tracks other than any record armed are running at 1024 samples
Really interesting. Not that I doubt what you are saying, but can you direct me to some Logic or Apple documents which confirm this, - thanks.
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Old 06-09-2010, 07:07 AM   #72
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Quote:
Please be aware when comparing to logic that ONLY the record armed tracks in Logic use the latency set in your buffer settings,all tracks other than any record armed are running at 1024 samples
By the way, how is Reaper compared to Logic in this aspect - anyone?
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Old 06-09-2010, 08:42 AM   #73
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Can anyone confirm that the 64 bit version uses nearly twice as much CPU?
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Old 06-09-2010, 08:54 AM   #74
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Can anyone confirm that the 64 bit version uses nearly twice as much CPU?
It doesn't for me. Do you have Preferences/Appearance/"Faster text rendering on" ? With that off, it might use a bit more CPU (though twice as much would be a stretch IMO).
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:40 AM   #75
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(btw latest version is RC2)
Does this mean pre15 is not available for download at all? I can find rc2 just fine, but not pre15.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:26 AM   #76
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Does this mean pre15 is not available for download at all? I can find rc2 just fine, but not pre15.
3.53pre15 is in old/, but 3.6rc3 is now the latest.
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:54 PM   #77
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So, curious minds would like to know how these optimizations/bugfixes are being made. I understand it has something to do with rendering through openGL? seems like kindof a large undertaking for a single day fix.. ?



edit: THANK YOU for the optimizations and continued dedication to OSX users !
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Old 06-09-2010, 03:15 PM   #78
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So, curious minds would like to know how these optimizations/bugfixes are being made. I understand it has something to do with rendering through openGL? seems like kindof a large undertaking for a single day fix.. ?



edit: THANK YOU for the optimizations and continued dedication to OSX users !
There have been numerous things combined to fix. Boring programmer notes follow:

1) We stopped using CGBitmapContextCreateImage(). This function is the obvious way of drawing a CGBitmapContext() to screen, but it turns out it is completely horrific to use, as it requires sending the kernel a message (to enable its copy-on-write behavior). The documentation of course just says that it has copy-on-write behavior, but doesn't mention the issues with that (or mention the alternatives). This decreased the (high) kernel CPU use when updating the screen, and should have no down sides. The fastest way to do the update on 10.5+ was using NSBitmapImageRep's CGImage method, and on 10.4 we use CGImageCreate().

2) We replaced much of the default OS X window composition code with our own. Cocoa provides a way to specify that views are "opaque", in theory allowing it to optimize re-rendering of those views, but their implementation of it seems to be quite slow, especially when redrawing multiple views at the same time. We replaced their code (at least on 10.5+) with our own, simple but efficient implementation. This greatly reduced the CPU use of updating meters, etc. It may be that there are little drawing glitches as a result, though. Oh, and it's possible that a future version of OS X (including a point update) could cause this code path to a) not be used, or b) not work right.

3) We optimized the background-erase code that REAPER uses when drawing backgrounds behind items. This was a relatively small gain, but is worth mentioning.


Using OpenGL doesn't appear to be a real option for us now.. The biggest thing we could do would be to ditch the use of NSView for internal windows, and handle all invalidation/composition ourselves, but this would require a substantial amount of work.
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Old 06-09-2010, 03:28 PM   #79
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Just want to say that I was briefly able to try out rc2 and I immediately noticed a huge difference in performance. Idle CPU use is greatly reduced and scrolling around a project while idle is substantially improved. This only changes when playing the project, but that is expected and I would happily sacrifice the GUI for audio stability, if that is in fact what is happening. It sounds like from the explanations you have given, that is the case, and I am not having any dropouts even though my project takes the CPU to 70% (140% in activity monitor) while playing.

While this is an incredible improvement, I do look forward to your continued attention to this. The GUI behavior still doesn't quite measure up to what I am used to on XP or Win 7. But, it's a whole lot closer now.
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:43 PM   #80
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Just ran a production with reaper 64 and kontakt 64 au with a 3 night production - 4 instances of kontakt and 1 of guitar rig.

Worked seemlessly and no glitches with cmd+tabbing out to check microsoft word and other things.

The GUI is much better now thanks.
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