Old 06-20-2010, 06:15 AM   #1
alex weber
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Default Notation view (DONE)

With like notes and stuff.צימר רומנטי For musos. For the record, if performance directions entered here (rit, mf, crec etc) צימרים במרכז would actually change the performance of the midi file, this would be a step above any other sequencer. Which REAPER obviously is... للاسهم

http://preisvergleich-kredite.de/
http://www.baiaopharma.com/

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Old 06-20-2010, 06:41 AM   #2
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Not against a score editor, but it would need more than active performance directions to make it a step above other sequencers. Some already do that.

Building a usable score editor will be a serious pile of work. Topping other DAWs with it even more so.
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:34 AM   #3
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OK so it's gonna be a ton of work... clearly true... now the 64 dollar question: Since work ='s time and time ='s money, and ver 4 is not that far away now.... how much more would anyone be happy to pay to have a good score editor?

Personally, I'd throw down for it.
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:38 AM   #4
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I'm rather sure v4.00 won't see a score editor yet. It is simply TOO much work.

But, v4.5 seems right.


Then again, we have 3 mad developers. Anything can happen.
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:40 AM   #5
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ok 4.5 ok 5.0 whatever

or maybe even a version with and without for diff prices
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:51 AM   #6
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or maybe even a version with and without for diff prices
Knowing Cockos that will definitely not happen. There is only one version of Reaper. They don't intend to make multiple versions (e.g. Lite, Pro, Producer, whatever), it's too much work to correlate all of them with updates, that's why they focus only on one, full-featured version.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:12 AM   #7
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I've said this before, but designing and writing a good notation software program is a *gargantuan* task which will slobber up all resources. It not just takes programming skills, you have to be very deeply steeped in the classical music tradition and notation for all different types and styles of music, not just classical but jazz, and all the intricacies of vocal music, different staves (treble, bass, alto, and there are dozens more). If you have used Sibelius for a while you will realize that a clever and intuitive notation program that satisfies most users' needs (which are wildly different) is so complicated and so fraught with complex and tangled choices, and it is so incredibly deep - for any serious users of notation software I'd say that the $ 600 spent on Sibelius (or Finale for that matter) will pay itself back very soon.

Just compare the notation features of Logic (which apparently is among the best of all DAWs but a joke if you are used to Sibelius) with Sibelius, and you'll know what I mean.

For around $ 300 there is Notion 3 as well. Sibelius and Notion play back dynamics and technique text (Finale as well I believe though I can't comment from a personal perspective). Even so, you will find that for the best and most realistic results you'll have to export the score to a DAW like Reaper or another, and then tweak midi notes, add automation and so on. Ideally if that could be integrated in Sibelius (eg with Pro Tools) that would make the killer application, saving a lot of time. For each revision, I'm doing everything twice - first in Sibelius and then all over again in Reaper.

I have suggested that to Sibelius but their focus is (still) primarily on notation features, though as part of the Avid there is obviously a keen interest in integrating all members of their family to the extent possible. Until that happens I'll happily user Reaper as DAW program.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:18 AM   #8
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A separate app (VST) that integrates well within Reaper though is not necessarily built in - to eliminate 'bloat' for those who would not find it of use - would be interesting.
It would also not interfere, or add additional work/time to future builds of Reaper.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:52 AM   #9
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Just get a notation editor and add it as an external editor.

I've been using - and very happy with- Harmony Assistant for years.
They have a $20 and an $85 full-page WYSIWYG version.

If you want a free one, just download MuseScore.

I would also rather not see all the fantastic progress in Reaper grind to a halt to build a notation editor
when you can just add one OF YOUR OWN CHOSING in....
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Old 06-21-2010, 07:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimOBrien View Post
Just get a notation editor and add it as an external editor.

If you want a free one, just download MuseScore.
I agree - Cockos would have to do a ton of work to surpass MuseScore, which seems to be better than any of the notation editors built into any DAW. Just use MuseScore.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:04 AM   #11
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Default Any word from the developers?

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Originally Posted by TimOBrien View Post
Just get a notation editor and add it as an external editor.
Have you actually tried this? It's quite a hassle, but most importantly you can't open more than one track at a time which would be the main use of a score view for me.

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I agree - Cockos would have to do a ton of work to surpass MuseScore, which seems to be better than any of the notation editors built into any DAW.
This is probably true. I see two options:

#1 A simply score viewer like in this request would help a lot http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=613

#2 Some kind of tight integration between MuseScore and Reaper. With the emphasis on tight and this could be a real killer.

Thoughts? Is there any word from the developers regarding this?
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Old 06-22-2010, 01:03 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
..For each revision, I'm doing everything twice - first in Sibelius and then all over again in Reaper
I do the same. It takes time but there are no other ways available today. Sometimes it is rather frustrating to move between Sibelius and Reaper. I try to split up a long score into shorter parts so that I don't have to rework everything after a revision but that too is rather slow.
I have no experience with Logic but I doubt that I would want to switch to a new environment when I now finally know the basics about Reaper. Sibelius needs a DAW. It is impossible to do final tuning of balance and velocities and panning and all the note modifications and tempos in Sibelius although Sib is very good as a notation program. I write contemporary classical which means that in the end I have to produce a printed score. The rendered mp3 from Reaper is there to show what I mean. I cannot deliver a Reaper project as the result although that would be a lot of fun.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:55 AM   #13
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I prefer all of this to be optional.

I prefer to name and symbol the notes. A, B, C, D... is a status-quo which I do not like. I prefer D, R, M, F, S, L, T and for the "black" keys: B, N, G, V , H accordingly (B = C#\Db and so on).

Also I would like to have 6-lines Stuff and no #,b, (bekar) at all.
Simply said:

Quote:
Long ago 10+ years or even more I realized that the notes must have their names and the appropriate symbil-letter for that. The long story short:

Do, Bu, Re, Na, Mi, Fa, Ge, So, Vu, Le, Ha, Ti (derived from 12-TET)
A single and only one letter for each note and of course:
Bu = C#\Db
Na = D#\Eb
Ge = F#\Gb
Vu = G#\Ab
Ha = A#\Bb

You can call it Musical alphabet, I do not mind. An octave should be called renova! Read further for the explanation.
Every tone of a scale (thus and interval) should be represented by a number (we all are used to them since pre-school and during the whole life).

unison = 0 (main tone, tonality)
prime (prima) = 1 (old semitone interval, half-step, half-tone)
second (secunda) = 2 (old tone, whole-step, whole-tone)
third = 3 (old minor third, hiatus for particular tonal modes)
fourth = 4 (old major third)
fifth = 5 (old perfect fourth, quarta)
sixth = 6 (old augmented fourth, diminished fifth, devil interval, diabolus)
seventh = 7 (old perfect fifth, the perfect interval) I call it Heaven interval (7-th Heaven if you like)
octava = 8 (old minor sixth, augmented 5-th)
nona = 9 (old major sixth)
decima = 10 (old dominant 7-th)
undecima = 11 (old major 7-th)
renova = 12 (old octave)

That is all. Now if you'd like to construct a simple major chord please write:
X4.7 where X is the symbol-letter for your chord's main tone or for example D4.7 means Cmaj
D4.7.11 means Cmaj7 and so on. For a minor please replace the 4 with a 3. Simple, clear and powerfull!!!
Invertions are even more clear:

To construct an invertion just count to 12 and make the substract. For example a 4-th (old major 3-rd) becomes a 8-va (old minor 6-th):
8D7
8.5D
For a minor just replace the 8-va with an 9-th (downwards). Simple, clear and powerfull!
By tone names you have the above as:
MDS and it is clear that the musician should play Mi-Do-So (old E-C-G) in that order as a chord
M.SD and it is clear that the musician should play Mi-So-Do (old E-G-C) in that order as a chord

Thank you. I am writting now my Treatise On Pentatonics but for now only in Bulgarian Language.
The numbers shpuld be written as a superscript though.
For more than renova simply put
Quote:
:2
for a resecond (old nona and so on)

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Old 06-22-2010, 05:11 AM   #14
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No hard feelings, but the system you're proposing adXok is very specific and not in widespread use. Standard notation is all over the place, I presume if Cockos tackles this, they will make a standard notation view.

I am also for TIGHT Reaper-MuseScore integration. That could work out splendidly.
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Old 06-22-2010, 06:56 AM   #15
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I am also for TIGHT Reaper-MuseScore integration. That could work out splendidly.
I am with that idea too. Seeing that the current MIDI Editor still could use a lot of improvement, adding score editor development to the bag doesn't sound good to me. The best way would be to cooperate with other developers and develop a cross-operation/integration standard. Something like ReWire but even deeper. Or license 3rd party code.

I would use basic score features myself, but not at the expense of slowing the improvement of basic functionality at this point.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:45 AM   #16
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I am also for TIGHT Reaper-MuseScore integration. That could work out splendidly.
+1 for that
...alternatively, a BASIC, functional notation view would be good
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Old 06-22-2010, 01:24 PM   #17
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I am all for optional and custom design.

12 notes in 12-TET, 24- intervals (usable 15 or near that). Custom number of Stuff rows (5, 6 maybe 7 why not). Custom view of a particular stuff line:
----------------------------- should be for the Clef So (Sol, S or old G) for example.

No #,b an bekars please (well optional of course).

I still wait to see C#\Db replaced by some letter (B frim the tone Bu in my case) and so on not need to repeat myself.

But maybe that is beacause I do not use widly spreaded ideas, status and movies, books, food and girls.
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:00 PM   #18
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Default first things first

I think standard notation is a pretty widespread thing. Let's stick to that for the time being. Not that I'm against adding options.

Again, does anyone remember the developers saying anything about this?
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Old 06-22-2010, 07:33 PM   #19
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I am also for Reaper+MuseScore tight integration (linked selections and transport, double clicking an item immediately opens a notation window).

Or maybe Cockos could hire a MuseScore magician and use his expertise to implement standard notation into Reaper (while allowing easy import/export between Reaper and MuseScore) ?

Anyway notation is important, because the future will belong to virtual instruments expressively interpreting symbolic notation, and "listening" to what the other virtual instruments do.

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Old 06-23-2010, 12:34 AM   #20
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so the question....

I now have MuseScore set up as the secondary external editor...

I have Audition as my primary external editor for audio files and that works beautifully....

But I don't see a way to pop a midi file into the secondary editor... is it there??? or are external editors not for midi?

I would think if we had the same sort of integration as we do with Auditon.... it would be grand

PS ummm well I see drag and drop sort of works I can drag and drop out of reaper to muse, but can't D&D back in...
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:09 AM   #21
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Quote:
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But I don't see a way to pop a midi file into the secondary editor... is it there??? or are external editors not for midi?
you can use an external editor for midi just like audio

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...42&postcount=9
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:18 AM   #22
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I think Reaper will not have a Score Editor 'cause there are prety much good ones out there (neither one works for me though so I consider to make my own one day). Just like Wavosaur is for audio. And that is good.

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Old 06-23-2010, 08:37 AM   #23
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Default It's about workflow

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I think ... there are prety much good ones out there
I guess nobody doubts that, but it's all about integration and workflow. It's about creating musical scores (where SFX and MIDI CCs are important)inside Reaper. It's about being able to see how different instruments interact with eachother. That's why a relatively simple thing as proposed here (http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=613) would already go a long way. Tight MuseScore integration would be the icing of course.
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:53 AM   #24
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usings MuseScore as the secondary external editor in the same way as the primary external editor does not work for me...

I have the action to open with secondary external editor added to the item context menu....

when I rt clk on a midi item, that action is greyed out...
If I force the issue by running it directly from the actions list, it only opens the midi item into reapers own midi editor...

So if there really is a way to use MuseScore for notation view editing, I don't find it....

Hopefully someone who knows about this will explain it clearly?
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:03 PM   #25
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It works fine just tried it.

With external editors selected on the left of the preferences window you should see under extension "mid" and beside that "mscore.exe" under primary or secondary.

Right click the midi item and select "open items in editor"\open item copies with 'mscore.exe'
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:23 PM   #26
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Default can't open multiple items as one score

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It works fine just tried it.
What you can't do though is open multiple items as one project in MuseScore, so you can't view multiple instruments in one score. That's one reason why I'd really like to see some improvement here.
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthias.matthias View Post
What you can't do though is open multiple items as one project in MuseScore, so you can't view multiple instruments in one score. That's one reason why I'd really like to see some improvement here.
A midi channel to music stave selection window, as well as key would be great.

I wonder if Reaper could eventually open MusicXML files the same way it opens midi files (just without access to the notation parameters) keeping the notation info in the background while we can still edit it as if it was midi and then export as a MusicXML file to a notation editor to change the notation. I have no idea if that is possible.

A quick look and it doesn't look easy (but for me any code doesn't look easy)
http://www.musicxml.org/xml/helloworld.html

PS:actually it doesn't look that bad

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Old 06-23-2010, 04:49 PM   #28
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Thanks ..but it is not at all working here:

Firstly, here are the action choices:

Item: Open item copies in primary external editor
Item: Open item copies in secondary external editor
Item: Open item in inline editor
Item: Open items in primary external editor
Item: Open items in secondary external editor
Xenakios/SWS: Open (audio) take in external editor 3
Xenakios/SWS: Open (audio) take in external editor 4

I know how to add those to the context menu and I have done that .. but they don't show as active [selectable] choices when I rt clk on the midi item... they are greyed out...

..and again, running them [primary or secondary] opens the midi item in the normal midi editor...

..of courese in the normal midi editor, there is no action for external editors...

As to the setting in pref's..

I have Audition set as the primary editor and as the default with no extension named... IF I don't have it this way, but instead name the ext. for .wav, or .aif... repear says there is no editor defined for those files [wtf? strange to me]

I have the ext. .mid set with mscore.exe as the primary external editor

But it don't open the midi item... it only, ever opens the reaper built in editor...

so wondering if there is some other setting to turn on or off or what...
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:29 PM   #29
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Hi hopi-

Try leaving the "." off the ".mid" extension.

-Susan
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
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If you want a free one, just download MuseScore
Okay, I'd never heard of this, but I've I've been wanted to give a score editor a try, so thought I'd check it out...

Within seconds of starting to download, McAfee Site Advisor gives a serious threat red warning, stating:

"POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS DOWNLOAD DETECTED!

"In our tests, this program contained programs some people would consider adware, spyware and other potentially unwanted programs."


So... anyone had any problems...?
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:55 PM   #31
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Hi Susan... thanks and yes I tried it that way also... same results no matter what...

I'm starting to really wonder about this one...

in your actions list, do you have anything other than what I posted under Item: with the search word 'editor'?

I know a few versions back there used to be the basic "open in external editor" ...but I don't see that anymore... worries me..

now I only see the ones I posted... wonder if my actions list is hosed somehow
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:53 PM   #32
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Hi hopi-

The only action I have that's not on your list is this one:
Item: Open all MIDI items on selected tracks in one MIDI editor

Here's what I have under Preferences > External Editors:



And here's my Context Menu:



I've only gotten Finale to open one MIDI item at a time (the last selected), but otherwise it does work here.

-Susan
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:20 PM   #33
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Thank you Susan... I really appreciate your clarity

I do have that other action, just not shown with the filter I used...

Just double checked actions and such by doing a totally stock install of reaper on a virutal machine... so it seems I'm ok in the actions dept.

I guess the one remaining thing I'd like to see if you can, is how you have finale set up in the pref's for external editors...

do you also have an external editor specific for audio files?

thanks if you have a moment to screen capture your pref's for that.

Oh yes I realize the best we can get for now is just one midi file at a time... oh well... but the bigger question for me is this... once opened in the ext. editor, and then with some changes made... can you have it go directly back to reaper with the changes? With wav files and Audition, that is what I can do that I like so much.
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:15 AM   #34
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PS... here is what I have set up, and it don't work:


work on audio tracks but not midi...



oh where have I gone wrong?
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:52 AM   #35
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Hi hopi-

Try adding an external editor with a "mid" extension for your notation program, like so:



I added one with the extension left blank for CoolEdit just for kicks, and that's available on my menu now for all audio items. So REAPER will now use CoolEdit for everything except MIDI items. But it needs to know to use a different editor for those, which is why another external editor has to be added with the "mid" extension (no "." before the "mid"), along with the path to your notation app.

That's my take on it, anyway!

HTH-

-Susan
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:57 AM   #36
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Susan... Thank You for that help.... at least now I have it semi working....

I have to make a few comments. Maybe they don't apply to notation apps other than MuseScore... Perhaps you can tell me how it works for you in Finale?

So here's the first thing... When I use Auditon for wav files [I think it would be the same for CoolEdit] I can open the wav in Audition... make changes to it, such as noise removal, fix clicks, whatever, and then hit Save and the changes show up on the wav file inside Reaper... not a copy, or any other messing around... the wav file in Reaper is now exactly what was a moment ago the wav file in Audition.... This to me, is exactly how things should be.

With midi files, at least with MuseScore it is NOT like this.

I can now get the midi file into that editor, and make changes to it, but when it comes time to save or save as there is no way I see to pass it directly back into Reap's....

So... gosh... what's the point really? It is just as easy or easier, to just D&D out a copy of the mid file and drop it onto MuseScore shortcut.

I am hoping you will say, "Oh, Finale sends it right back to Reaper..."

Also, I must say that the set up in pref's for primary and secondary editors is kinda strange... I mean geeez when asked for a file extension, it is normally .wav or .mid, eh?

Anyway.... for me, the external editor functions are great for audio files and less great for midi file...
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:50 AM   #37
Hartley Mays
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Default Dev Forum Discussion, why not socket communication?

Just in case anyone following this thread has missed it, there is a long-running thread on the Developer Forum:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=47259

which centers around the use of a java-based open source notation editor (Frinika, Improviser, or Tux Guitar). Alpha versions of the Frinika and TuxGuitar versions are on the stash, and are discused in more detail in other threads.

Since MuseScore is open source, the same idea discussed in this earlier thread about the use of socket communication with Reaper pertains, and could be done, at least to a basic and highly useful level, using existing calls supported in the API.

If it's certain that Cockos won't be doing anything on this for a good while, it certainly seems this should be pursued. As I've indicated on the developer forum thread, I can work on the java side of it, but have very limited experience with C++ to work on the Reaper or MuseScore side. But I'd be willing to try to help out there also.

Later,
Hartley
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:48 AM   #38
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Hartley... looking at that thread... went to see the frinka item... am I seeing there is no version that just runs natively on windows yet? Or, what do I do to try it on windows?

I like the discussion there .... but not being a code head, don't have much to say except I hope something that hooks in and out of reaper for notation edits gets done...
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:01 PM   #39
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Default Frinika

hopi,

Frinika runs natively on Windows, I'm not sure what you're looking at that's confusing about it. I'm at work now, but will review all this stuff this evening at home.

Good luck,
Hartley
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Old 06-24-2010, 02:18 PM   #40
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Hartley thanks.... I had the wrong dl from the site... now I got the correct one and am about to give it a look-see

PS... well OK got a look at it.... nice project but clearly not ready for prime time... but if you are thinking along the lines of getting the notation part out of it to conjunct with reaper, that might be interesting
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