Old 07-23-2010, 05:05 AM   #1
edding
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Default Worst of reaper: Takes System: horrible

Sorry, i can't go on with it.
I tried for a very long time reaper, is a beautiful program, light, powerfull with a lot of capabilities.

But for me is unusable becouse of bizarre take system. The singer normally build the track, recording a lot of takes. After half an hour of recording i have a INENTILLIGIBLE MOSAIC of takes.

All programs uses more simple and flexible paradigm: sam, logic, cubendo.

I don't think the takes system of reaper is bad, i think it's unusable.

I don't have here a picture of the disaster that can be your project only recording several takes in 20 minutes. But beleive me, is a really antiworkflow.

Really sad, becouse the rest of the program is really great.
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Old 07-23-2010, 05:18 AM   #2
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Well, if you use time selection auto-punch recording mode, you will get an equal length of all takes. No mess there.
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Old 07-23-2010, 06:48 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by edding View Post
But for me is unusable becouse of bizarre take system. The singer normally build the track, recording a lot of takes. After half an hour of recording i have a INENTILLIGIBLE MOSAIC of takes...I don't think the takes system of reaper is bad, i think it's unusable...I don't have here a picture of the disaster that can be your project only recording several takes in 20 minutes. But beleive me, is a really antiworkflow.
I have felt a similar level of pain. I do think you mean to say an "UNINTELLIGIBLE MOSAIC" of takes, as that is what I always ended up with until discovering the SWS extension "Build lanes" action as discussed in this thread:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=61356

There are some good ideas how to sort out your difficulties in that thread: some work getting there but worth the trouble. I can definitely say that the takes system in Reaper bothers me much less than it used to once I discovered this new way of working.
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Old 07-23-2010, 06:51 AM   #4
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Quote:
"I do think you mean to say an "UN-INENTILLIGIBLE MOSAIC" "

Un-in-tell-i-gible. : impossible to understand : not intelligible
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Old 07-23-2010, 06:56 AM   #5
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i think the take system in Reaper is absolutely useful, its my bread and butter, its one of main reasons why i use reaper for music production.
(Lanes OFF)

i hope cockos wont break it in the future.
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:04 AM   #6
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To me, the take system is perfect as is...(if used properly)
I wouldn't tweak it at all.
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Well, if you use time selection auto-punch recording mode, you will get an equal length of all takes. No mess there.
it doesnt seem so... could you explain how i can do this? It doesnt make sense for one of my takes to be looped, i am very interested in solving this

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Old 07-23-2010, 07:41 AM   #8
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it doesnt seem so... could you explain how i can do this? It doesnt make sense for one of my takes to be looped, i am very interested in solving this

Yep, same here. I'm with the OP. I don't see how this solves the problem. Comping is impossible (or I haven't figured out the "Reaper" way).

Loop recording, punch in/out and so forth just don't behave in a way I can figure out.
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:53 AM   #9
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Anyone saying the takes system is fine or giving work-arounds are missing the bigger picture.

It might be perfect or usable for you but the majority of people doing things like drums it's an unintuitive mess.

Adam's vid shows how broken it is best. If you can watch this and still say the takes system is fine, then words fail me :

http://www.screencast.com/users/f0rb...7-525951ceb3cb

I'm not a reaper hater, for me everything else works perfectly even though there's always room for a few tweaks. The takes system is the only big failing. If you tried to do what's in the video with 12 tracks of drums then reaper would fall to bits.

Lots of people have been asking for this to be fixed for the past 2 years so I wouldn't get your hopes up. Even a simple takes in lanes or auto-split off would make it usable.

This is one of the number one things that keeps new users away from reaper.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:18 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Well, if you use time selection auto-punch recording mode, you will get an equal length of all takes. No mess there.
I agree. Its hard to do any looped recording without this setting.

This works for me...

1. select time selection auto punch recording mode
2. set play cursor to beginning of time selection
3. Presss record, ( i have a 2 bar count-in) and play away.

Recorded takes are all the same length
If i stop somewhere in the middle of the take, it is expanded to fit the time selection, fine. no mosaics any more

oh, and make sure the track is actually tall enough to see all the takes in lanes!
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:19 AM   #11
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very frustrating. much simpler would be each time record is enabled the following recording/take is put in a new discreet lane regardless of items.
i.e the lanes are built according to time stamp.

see crappy drawing here: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=33
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:19 AM   #12
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it is expanded to fit the time selection, fine. no mosaics any more
i wish it wasnt looped, however
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:20 AM   #13
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Default is it that time already?

I mean time for the quarterly "takes sucks" thread ?
ok then I will chime in.

The Takes system is not completely broken. only the Takes-In-Lanes part of it. (which is be the best part IMHO so it sucks that it is broken). There are many workarounds. Some render the system usable - but that bar is low considering the way reaper raises the bar in so many other areas! So wonderful workarounds and macros aside...

I firmly believe that, were the marvelous devs at Cockos inc to address 4 issues the Takes-In-Lanes system would go from being the unintuitive, disastrous bane of any respectable comper's existence to a very powerful tool:

1. Takes automatically rename themselves when earlier takes are deleted. (Very bad! has to go. We no longer want to guess a takes origin.)
2. Takes jump the rails (they move around and change lanes, and expand/shrink in size when other takes are deleted from, or added to the stack.
3. a modifier is needed to allow the editing of a take independently of its sisters
4. Takes should not auto-split other items... but this is not a show-stopper if the other 3 issues are squashed! That is, if takes did not rename and resize them selves nor changes lanes, AND if Takes did not auto fade-in/out, then the auto split would be a non issues (IMHO).

to rephrase it as problem solving questions:
1. Why do takes RENAME themselves when earlier takes are deleted from the stack?
2. Why do takes resize themselves and change lanes? Why do them move around without the user moving them?
3. is it possible to temporarily unlink takes in a stack to trim and edit them individually?
4. is it possible to stop the auto split?

Here is the visual change we are after:

(awesome image by gofer)


????? pretty please with sugar on top

Hopefully a little take love will be the bone thrown to the audio-centric users in the midst of this wonderful midi storm!

and here is a great, earlier incarnation of this discussion: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=45977



many greetings
.t
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:48 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Amether View Post

I made this custom shortcut (attached) - I've mapped it to CTRL+ALT+minus Dunno if that's the same for you. Not sure how these things work exactly. It copies the selected area of the selected take and pastes it alone into the previous track. Looks like the PT way to me..?

this helped me alot. just passing it along.
Attached Files
File Type: reaperkeymap Take bit of take.ReaperKeyMap (149 Bytes, 438 views)
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:48 AM   #15
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I mean time for the quarterly "takes sucks" thread ?
Getting to be a monthly thread when ever new users start using reaper and start wtfing
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:52 AM   #16
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i wish it wasnt looped, however
Jason, I dont understand, just dont press 'loop'?
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:53 AM   #17
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Jason, I dont understand, just dont press 'loop'?
at what point? and where?

I want the recording to loop, but i dont want my last take to have any loops in it
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:58 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
I want the recording to loop, but i dont want my last take to have any loops in it
What I do is that I take it for granted that I will inevitably ditch the last take so I let it start the loop for an extra time....

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Originally Posted by Zee Wavesurfer View Post
To me, the take system is perfect as is...(if used properly)
I wouldn't tweak it at all.
I agree with a lot of what is being said so far...
What I meant is = Please, don't mess-up the way selecting a slice automatically mutes the other takes/slices and the wonderfull speed at which it allow to edit a '' best of '' track =

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Old 07-23-2010, 09:03 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
at what point? and where?

I want the recording to loop, but i dont want my last take to have any loops in it
if i stop mid time selection, there seems to be a loop in the last take as there are indents on it, but as soon as i 'grab' the right hand edge of the last take, the indents dissapear.. so is there actually a loop in the take?
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:04 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post

to rephrase it as problem solving questions:
1. Why do takes RENAME themselves when earlier takes are deleted from the stack?
2. Why do takes resize themselves and change lanes? Why do them move around without the user moving them?
3. is it possible to temporarily unlink takes in a stack to trim and edit them individually?
4. is it possible to stop the auto split?
I think we have all of this already if we record in free item positioning mode, no ?
(correct me if I'm wrong)

If so, shouldn't the question rather be:
What would we like to have changed in FIPM (since it's almost "there") so that we're happy ?

For me it would be an easy and fast way to do comping in FIPM. (Also discussed many times which approaches could be useful here, eg swipe comping. Personally, Id prefer a Cubendo-like "only play bottom most lane" comping style, but that's just me of course)

Last edited by nofish; 07-23-2010 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:12 AM   #21
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I'm still waiting for a Cubendo like "only play bottom most lane" comping style, but that's just me of course)
Bottom most "unmuted" lane/part? I'm not sure that method is better than Reaper's "select to play", if there weren't some of the other issues involved with Reaper's takes.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:14 AM   #22
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...I'm still waiting for a Cubendo like "only play bottom most lane" comping style, but that's just me of course)

ouch. thats the thing that keeps me away from working with Cubendo. if it would be "polyphonic" i'd love it. im sure you know it has 'container' (AudioParts) that you can open and do the comping inside - THATS the part i miss from reaper.

comping is really painless for me with LANES OFF - but then.. the comped part is still a "mess" - not a _single (container) item_. i know i could glue it, but no, that wouldnt work for me, becuase i'd loose the chance of adjusting content later (micro timing, etc)


FIPM is sort of close to what i want too - but FIPM has no container "around" the items either..

:/

(nor the Folder track)
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:31 AM   #23
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Bottom most "unmuted" lane/part? I'm not sure that method is better than Reaper's "select to play", if there weren't some of the other issues involved with Reaper's takes.
Thing is (but I can't verify this atm since I haven't any recording equipment here), there's no "select to play" if the track is in FIPM, it just plays everything always.
That's what I meant when I was saying a good way to do comping in FIPM (haven't found any yet).

Quote:
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ouch...
I figured already that there are not many fans of this around here so I won't argue about.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:33 AM   #24
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I have to use fipm all the time for recording. The only down side is items aren't counted as takes so i need to use like 4 keys to flip between takes instead of 1 button like the current takes system.

Time wise it adds up and slows things down.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:43 AM   #25
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Adam's vid shows how broken it is best. If you can watch this and still say the takes system is fine, then words fail me :

http://www.screencast.com/users/f0rb...7-525951ceb3cb

I'd say doing "punch-in onto a track" is a tape-based concept. If I want to record something that is to substitute for a section on an *already recorded take*, I'm going to use *takes on a separate track*.

The only problem I have with it is the leftover "last take" syndrome, which IMO could be solved with a "don't save last take if of incomplete (X) length".
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:43 AM   #26
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I have to use fipm all the time for recording. The only down side is items aren't counted as takes so i need to use like 4 keys to flip between takes instead of 1 button like the current takes system.

Time wise it adds up and slows things down.
Yeah, that's what I mean.
Either we record in normal mode then we get track clutter and all the disadvantages mentioned above.
Or we record in FIPM then we lose the takes system (which I still like to have).
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:52 AM   #27
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Adam's vid shows how broken it is best. If you can watch this and still say the takes system is fine, then words fail me :

http://www.screencast.com/users/f0rb...7-525951ceb3cb
the takes system is fine.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:03 AM   #28
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the takes system is fine.
Yes it is
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:06 AM   #29
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Thing is (but I can't verify this atm since I haven't any recording equipment here), there's no "select to play" if the track is in FIPM, it just plays everything always.
That's what I meant when I was saying a good way to do comping in FIPM (haven't found any yet).
Ah... I understand. Thanks.

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the takes system is fine.
For some it is, for others it's not. Like most things I guess it depends on how you use it or want to use it. I think it could use some improvement, specifically the things in Tallisman's 4 point statement.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:08 AM   #30
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For some it is, for others it's not.
...obviously
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Like most things I guess it depends on how you use it or want to use it. I think it could use some improvement, specifically the things in Tallisman's 4 point statement.
yeah, improvements would be cool. But no sense in using hyperbole. (not talking about you)
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:09 AM   #31
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...obviously
yeah, improvements would be cool. But no sense in using hyperbole. (not talking about you)
Very true J. A calm and reasoned discussion is more likely to have the desired result. I think NoFish made a great point above about the behaviors that are lost when using FIPM. So when you go to FIPM mode to avoid some of the "bad" behaviors of the other mode, you lose the "good" behaviors.

It's a bit of a catch-22.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:33 AM   #32
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Add me into the 'likes the current system' group.
I've never found a situation where my projects turned into the aforementioned 'incomprehensible mosaic', because I use the tools available to keep that from happening.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:57 AM   #33
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Add me into the 'likes the current system' group.
I've never found a situation where my projects turned into the aforementioned 'incomprehensible mosaic', because I use the tools available to keep that from happening.
unless i'm missing something big, i'd love to know what those tools are, because it can sure get messy in my world. when i've got a room full of 10 or 11 studio musicians that are being paid handsomely to sit and do nothing while i do some punches for a soloist, i don't want or need a "mosaic." we may jump all over the tune in different spots very quickly and in the end, the way we remember "doing it," should match the way the takes are laid out/numbered.
i.e the third time i hit "record" for a given track no matter where the time location is, audio should be recorded in lane 3.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:00 AM   #34
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unless i'm missing something big, i'd love to know what those tools are, because it can sure get messy in my world. when i've got a room full of 10 or 11 studio musicians that are being paid handsomely to sit and do nothing while i do some punches for a soloist, i don't want or need a "mosaic." we may jump all over the tune in different spots very quickly and in the end, the way we remember "doing it," should match the way the takes are laid out/numbered.
i.e the third time i hit "record" for a given track no matter where the time location is, audio should be recorded in lane 3.
Why not use multiple tracks for that ?
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:04 AM   #35
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Why not use multiple tracks for that ?
defeats the point of takes, is much slower, each new track changes the way my faders are set up on my daw controller, headphone mix, etc. etc.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:08 AM   #36
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defeats the point of takes, is much slower,
Yes, and yes... True
But thats how it was/is to be done in most of daws asside Reaper's take system.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:17 AM   #37
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Yes, and yes... True
But thats how it was/is to be done in most of daws asside Reaper's take system.
it's been quite awhile, but iirc, was able to move fairly quickly using nuendo 3's take system. it was all the other stuff (routing) that made me dump it for reaper.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:17 AM   #38
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i.e the third time i hit "record" for a given track no matter where the time location is, audio should be recorded in lane 3.
Why don't you delete the bad takes?
It takes .03 seconds to hit the key combo to delete active take. If the soloist screws up, delete the take, or don't save it in the first place!
Also, I don't understand that quoted bit... if you've not deleted anything, then the third take will always be take 3/3.... you can't record four takes and have only pressed record three times. :/

BTW, I always have my record button set to 'auto-punch time selection'. If you haven't tried that mode, give it a shot.
On top of that, I have everything recorded to the click, so any punches can be made directly to the grid. No 'mosaic', ever.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:37 AM   #39
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Personally, i think takes can be improved a lot.

Especially for newbies who don't want complicated workarounds.

What improvements would the people who "like it" be afraid of having changed?

My biggest beefs with it currently is that the takes don't stay in their lanes, you can't change the timing of one without changing all of them, and you can't trim the start or ends without it effecting all of them.

Are these traits preferred for some of you?

I understand that splitting or trimming an item "effects all takes" has it's advantages but it could be a preference. You can turn it on to cut up all the pieces and then turn it off so you can fine tune each take.

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Old 07-23-2010, 11:38 AM   #40
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the takes don't stay in their lanes
bingo!
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