Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER Feature Requests

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-13-2010, 04:32 AM   #1
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default MIDI editors: Add support for Note Off events (DONE)

It is shameful that Reaper still doesn't support these, even in Event List! Here's a proposition: rename the current Velocity lane to "Note On Velocity", and add a "Note Off Velocity" lane. Or simply call them "Note On" and "Note Off". Here's how this would look:

[IMG]http://a.**************/img819/5023/noteofflane.png[/IMG]


VOTE: HERE!
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 05:31 AM   #2
Subz
Human being with feelings
 
Subz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2,968
Default

help me vote

whats it for, why is it there?

i don't get it & i started out with all external midi gear (AKAI S200, Bass Station, JV5080) & Cakewalk 6 as the midi host i have no knowledge of velocity note off?

what can detect it? any vsti's? what would i map it to?

i'm all up for improvements in the midi editor when it comes to note off's (see the way reaper deals with overlapping notes on the same key! now that is shameful!! the Trim options help out there but its not the same,

seeing as trim had to be added to make the midi do what it dose in all other hosts i have used i guess note offs in Reaper are no easy thing to reprogram,

all other hosts send a note off before the note on with overlapping midi & then ignore the real note off for the underling key that was cut short by the overlapping key (exactly what trim dose)

anywhoo, back to helping me want your FR

Subz
Subz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 05:45 AM   #3
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

Some VSTi recognize note off, for example Pianoteq 3. You can route it to release time, or reverb amount, or harpsichord release click volume, whatever

Some keyboards send out note off, for example most of Korg keyboards do (even though for most of them it's not stated in the manual!), Kurzweils do, some Waldorf synths as well (Q, Blofeld...)
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 09:03 AM   #4
MatticusFinch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 506
Default

i have an alternative suggestion to a separate 'note off' cc lane... what if the values in the 'note on' cc lane start at 0, instead of starting at 1? by this i mean, when you draw the little bar to set cc, the bar at the lowest possible height would consist of a note off message instead of a very small note on message.

If this behavior were consistent for all CCs this would also solve the issue of Reaper being unable to reset pitch CC to zero in the pitch CC lane.
MatticusFinch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 09:07 AM   #5
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

That would be kind of hard to see. Because there is a difference between a Note On of 0, and Note Off going from 0 to 127! Note Off provides more value to the end result, especially if you're using it in a synth to modulate something.

So no, I'm not sure if I'd want Velocity (or Note On) to go down to 0. It shouldn't. A separate lane would be a better solution, IMO.


Then again I agree with proper resetting of pitchbend lane. It's awkward currently.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 01:34 PM   #6
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,273
Default

Please rather vote at the original request:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=213

Only 17 votes as of now, but nevertheless...

I like your mockup, ED it's the most natural way to do it, I think

But of course the list editor should also be switchable between the current length display and a mode where it shows the Note Offs as quasi-separate events (but tied behind the curtains, so you can't delete a Note Off without deleting the correspondent Note On)
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 05:28 PM   #7
MatticusFinch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 506
Default

I was thinking of something along the lines of a central "slot.." basically the 0 point would a few pixels wider than the current guide line, and you could place data on it like a step editor. That way there would be a clear visual difference between "minimum value" and "off." In every CC lane, btw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That would be kind of hard to see. Because there is a difference between a Note On of 0, and Note Off going from 0 to 127!
MatticusFinch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 05:31 PM   #8
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

Why not just use a lane for Note Off like for any other MIDI event? Your method seems complicating it a bit, IMHO.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 05:34 PM   #9
MatticusFinch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 506
Default

on the contrary, adding a new lane is more complicated than adding simple general-purpose functionality for null/reset/off events to all CC lanes. Anyway, just an idea - I'm not trying to diminish your FR.
MatticusFinch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 05:55 PM   #10
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

Resetting the CC lane to 0 is not really what this FR is about. I'm talking about Note Off as an actual event which has 128 discrete values. Not just one "note off" event which is in fact Note On with value 0...
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2010, 08:37 PM   #11
DanXIV
Human being with feelings
 
DanXIV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Please rather vote at the original request:
Done.

What do think of this:



DanXIV.
DanXIV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 02:45 AM   #12
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

The notes - good idea with two sides each for Note On/Off.

The lane - confusing, especially ifwhen Note On and Note Offs would be over 64! A separate lane for Note Off is what is wanted here.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 06:22 AM   #13
DanXIV
Human being with feelings
 
DanXIV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
The lane - confusing
Agreed.

How about something like this:



The idea is to keep it in one lane that would still be called velocity.

DanXIV.

Last edited by DanXIV; 08-14-2010 at 02:12 PM.
DanXIV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 06:31 AM   #14
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

Hmmm. I dunno, I'd still prefer a separate lane. Since it IS a separate MIDI event - Note On and Note Off. Velocity would be renamed to Note On, and Note Off would be added (and shown only if you want to).
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 06:51 AM   #15
arkima
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NZ
Posts: 375
Default

I agree - Definitely needed.. I like the visual ideas in progress here..

voted.
arkima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 07:38 AM   #16
DanXIV
Human being with feelings
 
DanXIV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Velocity would be renamed to Note On, and Note Off would be added (and shown only if you want to).
Think about new users, they will look for velocity. This is why I think that renaming velocity to note on and off will be confusing for them. Maybe velocity on and velocity off? And what if we could hide one or the other and also have them both visible in the same lane? Or maybe the separator lane could be dragged up and down? This way you could put two of them and have it your way anyway. I prefer the one lane approach.

DanXIV.
DanXIV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 10:13 AM   #17
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

It could work if it were "Velocity (Note On)", and "Note Off" for the other lane, respectively. I still don't agree with one-lane approach to two DIFFERENT MIDI events.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 10:32 AM   #18
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,273
Default

I'd settle for "Velocity (Note On)" and "Velocity (Note Off) and agree with the two-separate-lanes approach. Showing them in one lane will get pretty dense at times and I don't think we need to invent a whole new type of lane to visualize release velocity.

It would be nice though to have some indication which Note Off belongs to which Note On. Any ideas there?
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 10:49 AM   #19
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
It would be nice though to have some indication which Note Off belongs to which Note On. Any ideas there?
This would have to depend on currently selected color map, or something.

The best way to see this is actually visiting the MIDI event list - only there we'd be able to see to which note is which Note Off assigned.

That being said, I like Dan's idea of showing both Note On and Note Off on one note, but adjacent sides - although it only seems viable on higher zoom levels.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 10:55 AM   #20
mac_ro_s_12_
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 30
Default

what is it good for?
any sound examples?
other DAW reference?
mac_ro_s_12_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 10:57 AM   #21
DanXIV
Human being with feelings
 
DanXIV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
two DIFFERENT MIDI events.
Attached (and undetachable) to ONE note...

I think we have to agree to disagree

__________________
DanXIV
DanXIV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 11:07 AM   #22
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

Well that's the problem - you can't detect to which note it's connected to from ANY CC lane - you have to watch the main MIDI editor area for that. Having them in the same lane isn't gonna help with that - only MIDI event list is. This suggestion is about displaying and editing Note Offs in the same way we can edit Note Ons (Velocity) currently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_ro_s_12_ View Post
what is it good for?
any sound examples?
other DAW reference?
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...66&postcount=3


A good DAW should have support displaying these events, no example is necessary. It is part of MIDI standard, and if your DAW supports MIDI, it should support Note Offs as well!
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 11:11 AM   #23
mac_ro_s_12_
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 30
Default

I never used it in other daws and never found it to be so essential.

maybe if I will hear examples...
mac_ro_s_12_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 12:03 PM   #24
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

It is essential to comply to actual MIDI standard, which Reaper supposedly supports.

You don't have to vote if you don't find it essential. I find it obligatory to have if you're editing a lot of MIDI, and especially if you work with VSTs which recognize and USE the release velocity information, which I do.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 12:10 PM   #25
mac_ro_s_12_
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
It is essential to comply to actual MIDI standard, which Reaper supposedly supports.

You don't have to vote if you don't find it essential. I find it obligatory to have if you're editing a lot of MIDI, and especially if you work with VSTs which recognize and USE the release velocity information, which I do.
but that's only for plugins that support this feature..

what about cubase's articulation lane? vst3 lots of plugins start to support this.

what about slide notes for FL plugins? after all there are lots of quality plugins from FL, so why not to support it?
mac_ro_s_12_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2010, 12:12 PM   #26
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

Those are all nice features, except slide notes are proprietary to FL and we probably won't see them in Reaper (because there are more VSTs which support note off than VSTs which support slide notes )

VST expressions are very nice and would be useful, but that's not really what this FR is all about. VST3... is not supported so well, yet. Don't mix up this FR with some others. If you don't like this feature, you don't have to vote for it. I find it useful and needed for my work, so I asked for it.

It is not only for plugins. Quite a number of hardware synths also recognize note offs, and I would like to be able to edit that information in Reaper, if I need to (since I have such hardware). Can you understand this request now? Note offs are part of MIDI standard and that information should be displayed in Reaper, and editable like all other MIDI data. Again if you don't need this, don't vote please. Negative votes don't really make sense here - it's like denying that Note offs aren't part of MIDI standard.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 08-14-2010 at 12:28 PM.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 03:30 AM   #27
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

Long time no bump!
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2011, 11:06 PM   #28
entspeak
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 85
Default

Has there been any progress on this? I agree that this is a part of the MIDI standard that needs to be supported. There are some patches in Kontakt, for example, that rely on release velocity - what you're calling "note-off velocity" - to work properly. A mandolin patch, for example that plays downstroke samples at velocity when the key is pressed and, on release, plays upstroke samples at the release velocity - the effect is amazing. I used to use it on my Kawai K5 to simulate variations in guitar strumming from downstroke to upstroke. It needs to be something that can be edited in the MIDI Editor.

I agree that release velocity needs to have its own distinct lane - it is a completely different event and can be routed to a parameter that is completely unrelated to what velocity may be controlling. For example, velocity may be controlling the VCA Envelope Release while release velocity is routed to Filter Resonance - why have the two in the same lane? And call the two different lanes just that - Velocity and Release Velocity.

On a related note, the new Axiom Pro keyboards from M-Audio can be set to transmit release velocity.

Last edited by entspeak; 05-26-2011 at 11:12 PM.
entspeak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 04:01 AM   #29
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,464
Default

No progress at all.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 06:34 AM   #30
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,273
Default

There also needs to be some sort of automatic conversion process involved. So if a MIDI used Note-On value 0 as stop-event, that event would need to show up in the release velocity lane as well (maybe with a different look). The moment you grab it in the release velocity lane it would automatically be converted into a "real" Note-Off with the value of your choice.

Similar would happen with that doubled velocity handle on notes. Notes would use Note-On vel.=0 until you actually decide and change it (or have recorded it with Note-Offs).

I think it wouldn't make much sense to force people to use Note-Off events always.

Last edited by gofer; 05-27-2011 at 06:39 AM.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 06:46 PM   #31
musicbynumbers
Human being with feelings
 
musicbynumbers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 13,668
Default

Bumping this I just got a roland A-800 pro (not much else on the market with decent keys) and found it it has note off velocity and have a few instruments now that make use of it so would love it to be implemented. Anoyone else who wants this. Feel free to vote in the below link

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=213
__________________
subproject FRs click here
note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
musicbynumbers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 01:57 PM   #32
Defiant00
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3
Default

Bump and a +1 from me, I find it pretty puzzling that we're still missing such a core part of MIDI.
Defiant00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 07:54 AM   #33
Soli Deo Gloria
Human being with feelings
 
Soli Deo Gloria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 1,163
Default

Just voted!
Soli Deo Gloria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2016, 07:00 AM   #34
mikeroephonics
Human being with feelings
 
mikeroephonics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,522
Default

Regarding hardware MIDI controllers which support MIDI Note-off Velocity, I just bought a Roland A-800 MIDI Keyboard Controller. I hasn't arrived yet but the manual states that it supports Note-off Velocity.

From the A-800 manual (values in brackets are what it transmits):
Note ON: (9n v=1–127)
Note OFF: (8n v=1–127), (9n v=0)

I look forward to using this, as well as its channel aftertouch!
__________________
Please check out these MIDI requests: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=103192
Thanks.
mikeroephonics is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.