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Old 10-21-2010, 07:42 PM   #1
lunker
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Default Timing bug With Automation Envelope ???

Reaper 3.72, 32-bit Win XP

I set up an envelope to automate the power level in Jamstix. Every four measures, the power level increases by 20%. All the points in the envelope use a square shape for the curve.

However, the envelope values are being applied a measure and a half before the cursor gets to each envelope point! See the following screen capture video. Notice that the automation fader jumps well before each envelope point is reached.

https://stash.reaper.fm/6953/Jamstix_Automation.gif


Here's another one. I changed the envelope to a linear ramp lasting 4 measures long. Notice that after two and a half measures, the fader abruptly jumps to the final value.

https://stash.reaper.fm/6954/Jamstix_Automation2.gif


There are no other envelopes on any of the tracks.
What gives??? Did I screw up some preference/option? Or is this a bug? I don't recall having problems like this before.
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Last edited by lunker; 10-21-2010 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Updated video
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:14 PM   #2
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that is curious... but don't have JS to test it....

normally every automation I've ever set up works as expected....
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:17 PM   #3
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i've had things act weird if the track wasnt record enabled (i think) somthin about realtime buffering made things weird - cant totally remeber but somethin to check anyway
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:20 PM   #4
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The videos shown above were from an existing project that I added automation to.

I created a new project, added a single track, added Jamstix, and automated the same parameter -- and it works correctly.

So I'm leaning toward it being a problem with the original project. But I swear -- there are no other automation envelopes in that project. For the new project, I didn't open Jamstix and create a song/kit/etc., so perhaps doing that would cause the problem to manifest itself again.

I will investigate more, and either post additional information about how to recreate the problem or admit my stupidity if it turns out to be a user error.
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Last edited by lunker; 10-21-2010 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:25 PM   #5
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hey I don't think yer stupid... I think you are on the trail of something and likely we'd all benefit from what you discover...

...we all make mistakes... I thought I made one last year, but it turned out I was mistaken about that...
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:03 PM   #6
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OK, I can replicate the problem.

I'm not sure what possessed my to try this, but I found that the more audio channels the track has, the earlier in the timeline the envelope jumps to the end point.

In post #4, when I created a new project that worked correctly, I left the track with the default of 2 audio channels. The project with the problem has 32 audio channels.

I changed the problem project to have 2 channels, and it worked correctly.

I went back to the "created from scratch" project that worked correctly, and varied several parameters and decided that there is something very strange going on here. I can vary the measure/beat at which the envelope jumps to the final point by changing the number of audio channels on the track or the project tempo.

Since I can consistently replicate the problem, I am submitting a bug report.

PS - I can replicate this error for any FX, not just Jamstix.
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Last edited by lunker; 10-22-2010 at 04:40 AM. Reason: removed unnecessary profanity
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:29 PM   #7
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Here's the video i am using for the bug report:

https://stash.reaper.fm/6955/Envelope...ng%20Error.gif

It has 6 tracks -- all identical except for the number of audio channels (2, 4, 8, 16, 32, and 64 from top to bottom). All tracks have an envelope to automate the same ReaDelay parameter.

Notice how the envelope fader for the 64-channel track jumps first, followed by the fader for the 32-channel track, then the fader for the 16-channel track, etc.


Bug report submitted: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3025
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Last edited by lunker; 10-21-2010 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:29 PM   #8
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I *CAN* replicate, but not to the same extent as your GIF shows (using your RPP). Maybe it's also buffer dependent?
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:57 PM   #9
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BRB with a gif from here using your test ... can NOT confirm:
OK.. took your test project and put in some action markers to make it Pause at a few places... this lets you check the values for a moment...
I don't see any jumping of the tracks with more IO's than the others...



PS... the gif was done at 45 fps so you can really see it move slowly...


done on XP SP2 32 bit reaper ver. 3.72
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:01 AM   #10
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It jumps near the end on mine, not at the start.
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:05 AM   #11
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I know its hard to tell from the gif... but I can't help that... but I see no jump at all... I tried it with other rea fx as well... it all seems smooth as silk here...

so wtf? audio card\settings???? buffer something or other??? It's so hard to tell when we can't have a few systems on the bench side by side...
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:29 AM   #12
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ah sorry, for some reason when I watch your gif it never actually makes it to the last bit of the automation (which is where mine jumped).
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:01 AM   #13
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perhaps I'll have to make it again... maybe tomorrow... but atm I can only report that using the action markers for !1008 [pause] is a good way to be able to watch what is going on at a given point in time....

I don't see any jump at all... they all just run smooth and equal...

PS.. no wait... the gif does run to the last of the automation... it's right on the bar 5.1.0... don't you see that?
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:04 AM   #14
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First I thought I couldn't replicate at all, but then noticed that track 6 indeed does a jump a tiny little tad ahead of 5.1.00. I raised ASIO buffers to the max and saw the jump taking place earlier and become noticeable on the tracks above as well. It seems moliere is right in that it depends on the bufer size.
I couldn't get a fader to jump as early as yours.

I confirm the issue as such, but can't get it to become as noticeable as in your video capture. What audio driver mode and buffer setting are you using?

Edit: Hopi, in your gif take a close look at track 6 when the cursor gets near 5.1.0. It does jump and is at max value earlier than the tracks above, so your gif confirms the issue as well. Try raising the audio buffers and see if it becomes more noticeable.
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
PS.. no wait... the gif does run to the last of the automation... it's right on the bar 5.1.0... don't you see that?
It's showing up now (it didn't make it right to the end last time I looked) and funnily enough, you'll see that right on the second to last (ish) frame, the bottom track jumps before the others. *edit* too slow.
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:47 AM   #16
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Good call on the buffer.

I won't be at my Reaper PC until much later tonight to test it, but I can confirm that I tend to use a high ASIO buffer. The videos in question were made with a buffer of 1024 samples or greater -- probably 4096, which is about 95 ms on my system. I know that's high, but I have no need for low latency monitoring, and due to less-than-optimal hardware I keep it above 1024 to avoid glitches.

One thing that puzzles me, though -- the envelope fader jumps incorrectly even when I'm not in playback mode. If I stop the transport and click on the timeline to move the edit cursor, the fader will jump to the incorrect value just like it does during playback. I would have thought that the ASIO buffer size would not affect that. But then again, I don't know all the details of the underlying Reaper code, so maybe the ASIO buffer size does come into play even when not in playback mode.

When I get home, I will lower the buffer and see what happens.

Also, the buffer idea fits in well with the fact that changing the tempo changes the point at which the jump occurs. It seems that the timing error is measured from the end on the envelope, not the start. If I make the envelope ramp over 8 measures instead of 4, the jumps all shift 4 measures later, which maintains the same "delta time" between the jump points and the end of the envelope. When I cut the tempo in half, the jump points all shift to the right, and again maintain the same "delta time" between the jump points and the end of the envelope.

A rough estimate shows that the timing error is linearly proportional to the product of the number of audio channels and the ASIO buffer size. If I am in fact using a buffer of 4096, that is roughly 95 ms. The 32-channel track jumps to the max value about 3 seconds early (32 * 95 ms = 3.040 seconds); the 64-channel track jumps to the max value about 6 seconds early (64 * 95 ms = 6.080 seconds); etc.
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Last edited by lunker; 10-22-2010 at 09:26 AM.
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