Old 12-13-2010, 08:20 AM   #1
psionic
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Default Multiout VST

Reaper is really great little proggy, but for the love of the god, please make adding multichannel VSTs a little less painfull.

If I add a multichannel VST, I have to make primary track, and then put sends to other tracks, and disable midi sending and a lot of other things.... And there is a mess in the console and the track view, I have to hide things...

PLEASE, look how it is done in the Presonus Studio One. It is really neatly done there.
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:56 AM   #2
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If you add a multiout vst via the "add instrument" option you should get a message asking you if you want to auto-create the necessary outs

Also if you right click on the instrument name in the fx chain window you can choose to build not only the outs but also the midi if need too
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Old 12-13-2010, 09:02 AM   #3
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What MBN says.
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Old 12-13-2010, 09:17 AM   #4
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dont forget folders too
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Old 12-13-2010, 09:29 AM   #5
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Learn about track templates, too.
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
If you add a multiout vst via the "add instrument" option you should get a message asking you if you want to auto-create the necessary outs

Also if you right click on the instrument name in the fx chain window you can choose to build not only the outs but also the midi if need too
Ok, I know of this, but still, but still there is a mess in the tracks and mixer view... If I only had regular folders (not ones which route through themselves) to help me organise things better...
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:34 PM   #7
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You don't have to route through folders but still use them for organisation and if you have the option enable you can also click a folder's icon in the mixer to hide its child tracks too.

Or did I misunderstand you?
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:52 AM   #8
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@psionic,
I don't have Studio One. Can you explain how Studio One does it and what you end up with?

I have set up my multi-output VSTis just how I want them and saved them as track templates. It takes but a few clicks (or one drag) to add them now.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
You don't have to route through folders but still use them for organisation and if you have the option enable you can also click a folder's icon in the mixer to hide its child tracks too.

Or did I misunderstand you?
Yes, I want to use for organisation of the view only. But I can't figure out how... Disabling send to MASTER/PARENT, and then using sends ?

@Darkstar

Studio one has only one track which sends data to VSTi - automation, midi, etc... First output pair is shown on the mixer view only. You can click synth's icon and select more outs to be shown on the mixer. So, if I need multi channel VST, i just create single track for sending midi data, then select to which VSTi will send, and that's it. VSTi and the tracks are two different things there.

In Reaper, every VSTi's outs are threated as tracks in the track view. That's kind of redundant. I have them in the mixer, already. If I want to have one track with - let's say BATTERY VSTi, on which - kick goes on out 1+2, snare on 3+4... I will end with three tracks - one for master 4 channel track, which sends audio 1+2 to track BAT_OUT_1+2, audio 3+4 to track BAT_OUT_3+4 then another two 2 channel tracks (BAT_OUTs) which get audio from the four channel track, further, I can't group these two tracks into some kind of folder to organise the mess a bit... I don't know how you guys are working with multi out VSTi, but in my opinion - current way of doing it is really messed up. For audio enthusiasts out there, it may be awesome to tweak channels like crazy, but for others...
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Learn about track templates, too.
Can't agree more with you ED but you gotta admit like many here that indeed MultiOut Vst ain't the fastest nor most easiest way compare to other daw and one of the best example is "Cubase and Studio One", both of these DAW really are best on how VSTi Multi Out are assignable.

And I agree with you with leanring about track templates but ain't everybody who start a new project get to use the same template. I never used template in a DAW in my life. Simply because every project for me is simply different and don't use the same Vsti everytime

So i think and hope this will be addressed in R4
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psionic View Post
Studio one has only one track which sends data to VSTi - automation, midi, etc... First output pair is shown on the mixer view only. You can click synth's icon and select more outs to be shown on the mixer. So, if I need multi channel VST, i just create single track for sending midi data, then select to which VSTi will send, and that's it. VSTi and the tracks are two different things there..
I've added this to my "Build Routing Confirmation FR:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=424
-- selecting the number of outputs is already requested.
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:16 AM   #12
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Can't agree more with you ED but you gotta admit like many here that indeed MultiOut Vst ain't the fastest nor most easiest way compare to other daw and one of the best example is "Cubase and Studio One", both of these DAW really are best on how VSTi Multi Out are assignable.

And I agree with you with leanring about track templates but ain't everybody who start a new project get to use the same template. I never used template in a DAW in my life. Simply because every project for me is simply different and don't use the same Vsti everytime

So i think and hope this will be addressed in R4
Uhm... I disagree. Multiout VST is handled pretty good in Reaper. Beats the hell out of Sonar!

Anyways having a track template per VST is totally not a bad idea, because you can set it up completely how you want, and yes I do find myself using them quite a lot, because I can pre-wire them however I want, or add any needed FX there, too. You can also name the tracks and add track icons and change track colors and save that to a template, so that you don't have to do that all the time after loading a VST. You can also save the visibility state in TCP and MCP in a template, which means you can have some tracks which you don't find necessary hidden in TCP, but showed in MCP, and vice versa!

Perhaps you should start using templates. And I don't mean project templates. Track templates are extremely useful, exactly for the reasons I stated above. It doesn't matter if "every project you do is different". Track templates speed things up. A LOT. End of story.
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Old 12-17-2010, 05:53 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Uhm... I disagree. Multiout VST is handled pretty good in Reaper. Beats the hell out of Sonar!

Anyways having a track template per VST is totally not a bad idea, because you can set it up completely how you want, and yes I do find myself using them quite a lot, because I can pre-wire them however I want, or add any needed FX there, too. You can also name the tracks and add track icons and change track colors and save that to a template, so that you don't have to do that all the time after loading a VST. You can also save the visibility state in TCP and MCP in a template, which means you can have some tracks which you don't find necessary hidden in TCP, but showed in MCP, and vice versa!

Perhaps you should start using templates. And I don't mean project templates. Track templates are extremely useful, exactly for the reasons I stated above. It doesn't matter if "every project you do is different". Track templates speed things up. A LOT. End of story.
I agree about track templates, but honestly, I see them as workaround for pretty entangled multi IO functionality. Also I realize that changing stuff in this area would turn REAPER up side down, this software has different working philosophy... That multi channel tracks routed to other tracks, sends... but hey, that's the way of Reaper, I am asking to change the basic functionality of the software.

And yes, Sonar has some awkward track and mixer management, which also bothers me, I need to hide tracks here, show them there... For now, Sonar is my #1 DAW, but a lot of crashing and some other things made me search for another DAW alternative... Reaper is one of the candidates, but I need to work it out some more, maybe I am not used to it's way of working.
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Old 12-17-2010, 06:03 AM   #14
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Hey, I'm coming from Sonar so I know how you feel.


And yes, you didn't get used to Reaper's philosophy, seems so. Took me some 6-8 months till I gelled with it, too. And I still learn new stuff every day. But I can already say that I like multiout plugin handling much better than any other DAW!
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Old 12-17-2010, 10:05 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
I've added this to my "Build Routing Confirmation FR:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=424
-- selecting the number of outputs is already requested.
+1 for that! And check box for show only in mixer is very handy tool, too...
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Old 12-17-2010, 10:46 AM   #16
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here's a thought... it is something I have done and find handy.

make a trak and name it 'VSTi goes here'

now under it make 16 more traks, each of which send their midi to one of the 16 midi chan's of the VSTi. Name them like so:
midi 1, midi 2, etc.

Now save that as a track template, called VSTi by 16.
Now delete the 16th midi track and save again as a template called VSTi by 15...

Keep repeating that while removing the last midi track until you have templates that will include any number of midi tracks from 1 to 16... It's very fast to do this once your main 16 trak template is made.

OK, now say you want to run a VSTi and want 5 midi traks for it... no prob... load up the appropriate template and load the vsti on the top [VSTi goes here] trak.

Get the idea... a set of generic VSTi multout templates.

Of couse you could just use the one with all 16 tracks and just delete from the bottom the midi traks you don't need at the moment.

Of course you can 'folderize' these in your project as desired.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:39 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Uhm... I disagree. Multiout VST is handled pretty good in Reaper. Beats the hell out of Sonar!

Anyways having a track template per VST is totally not a bad idea, because you can set it up completely how you want, and yes I do find myself using them quite a lot, because I can pre-wire them however I want, or add any needed FX there, too. You can also name the tracks and add track icons and change track colors and save that to a template, so that you don't have to do that all the time after loading a VST. You can also save the visibility state in TCP and MCP in a template, which means you can have some tracks which you don't find necessary hidden in TCP, but showed in MCP, and vice versa!

Perhaps you should start using templates. And I don't mean project templates. Track templates are extremely useful, exactly for the reasons I stated above. It doesn't matter if "every project you do is different". Track templates speed things up. A LOT. End of story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Hey, I'm coming from Sonar so I know how you feel.


And yes, you didn't get used to Reaper's philosophy, seems so. Took me some 6-8 months till I gelled with it, too. And I still learn new stuff every day. But I can already say that I like multiout plugin handling much better than any other DAW!

With all due respect ED but for my experience just like you're talking about your experience and thats why your statement saying suggesting me to use "tracks Templates" I find very cool idea but for me it ain't the END OF STORY. WHY?

Pretty simple, because we're all different even now I start getting my way around slowly and thank God with the help of great fellas here including yourself, but to my Experience, I will completely disagree that Reaper handles multi-out Vsti then any other DAW on the market. I wouldn't say that to my experience. Especially if you take a new DAW like Studio One, I mean you can't get any simpler and more straight forward then that and even to create a track template in S1, a novice would make it happen the first day he got it running compare to Reaper. And I think that is just a fact and proved with the many requests that many Reaper users have been asking.

I don't want to make a debate again with all due respect but I think ain't because after all the time spent in reaper that you had and developed and became very used to it's behavior that really means Reaper handles that particular side better then other DAW's out there. Again, to my experience, I will have to completely disagree with you but definitely respect yours a 100% too.

And finally even though I started creating tracks or projects templates because we ain't got the choice in Reaper yet to speed up our workflow but I'm sure this matter will be addressed sometimes in V4 or V5 etc...

I'm not suggesting NOT to create Tracks Temps to accelerate the workflow but I know that when it comes to that "subject", Reaper can do much better and will do.

And in the mean time, I'm getting used to Reaper's way and will continue to.

Cheers!!!
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:57 AM   #18
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I agree with Solar here.

I think the manual methods for doing that could be better. To put this into proper perspective, Reaper actually handles "templates" for multi-out VSTI's pretty darned well but that's only re: templates. Neither Studio One nor Cubase have templates for multi-output VSTI's that capture all of the plugs in the chain + the instrument so that's a no contest for that one thing.

On the other side of the coin, when you have to do that manually Reaper's method is a little annoying and the other two just require a single click to expose another output and create the mixer channel for it in one step. Additionally, when you turn OFF an output the channel goes away, as it should, to not clutter up the mixer with unused multi-channels or require them to be manually deleted.

So in reality there are two things going on here...

1. The ability to store your multi-out settings for recall which is fantastic. I love the way Reaper does that and it's a long time FR for S1 and Cubase.

2. But that's being presented as a way to build routings quickly, which it is, but it doesn't address the manual things that happen with multi-out VI's, only the "getting started" part. It's really a workaround to what is a typical method, multi-outs and their subsequent mixer channels being exposed and destroyed automatically as they're turned on and off.

So it could (imo) use some improvement for the manual methods.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:32 PM   #19
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It is a heck of a lot of work to setup manually in Reaper. The automatic way? Bleh, never does what I want.

But is it really significantly easier in other host? I only used Tracktion other than Reaper, you had to use some kind of rack to do it and to me it was a nightmare, a thousandfold worst than Reaper... Anybody can point to videos showing how it's done in Cubase or S1 that show how easy and flexible it is?
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:57 PM   #20
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I wouldn't necessarily say it's easier in either to get started recording midi with multi-out VSTI's, maybe more logical.

Load a VSTI and play. If you need another discreet ouput, click a button and play. In my case, with the exception of drum VI's, I rarely know how many outputs I'll even use so I create them as I need them. That's usually a single click to turn on another output if I want strings now on another channel. Instead of looking at all 16 when I don't even know if I'll use 4 yet.

I suppose with a 16 out VI in Reaper like FL Studio you could create 4 templates for 4-8-12-16 outs or just always load 16 or just always do it manually as you need them.
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Old 12-19-2010, 08:56 AM   #21
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I wouldn't necessarily say it's easier in either to get started recording midi with multi-out VSTI's, maybe more logical.

Load a VSTI and play. If you need another discreet ouput, click a button and play.
In my case, with the exception of drum VI's, I rarely know how many outputs I'll even use so I create them as I need them. That's usually a single click to turn on another output if I want strings now on another channel. Instead of looking at all 16 when I don't even know if I'll use 4 yet.
...And that's the part where STUDIO ONE beats REAPER. You always have only stereo outs mapped to mixer. If you need to see another out, just click on the VSTi icon in the mixer view and select another input to be shown.

More multiout VSTis I use commonly, and are not drummers (if drummers alone aren't reason enough):
Kontakt
Hypersonic
Halion 3

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Old 01-06-2011, 12:24 AM   #22
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Some of you guys said that it is possible to have folder with tracks inside which aren't routed through it... PLS, if you can answer how, and take look at what I want to do:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=71947
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Old 01-06-2011, 02:02 AM   #23
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... done
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:37 AM   #24
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I agree with Solar too.

Ive been playing with S1 lately and it really is a pretty simple, straight up DAW.
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Old 01-06-2011, 11:15 AM   #25
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Ive been playing with S1 lately and it really is a pretty simple, straight up DAW.
It is. It's not as powerful as, frankly any, of the majors yet but for just diving in and working, it's (imo) about as easy as it gets... subjectively speaking of course.

Reaper (the unspeakable version) is shaping up nicely though.
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