The need for midi feedback from Reaper

[RBowlin]

I can adjust a send level with an external controller. However, Reaper provides no feedback to the controller. For those mixing a sesion with a control surface this is a real problem.
As you can imagine, you select a track, twist a knob and change the send level. Do the same on a different track. Go back to the first track and the controller is at second track's position. Twist the knob to fine-tune and Reaper jumps to the value of the second track! For all practical purposes, this makes using a control surface to adjust sends non-functional.
If there were two-way communication between Reaper and the control surface the problem would be solved.
Is there any chance this issue could be resolved (at least as to the sends) in V4?

-Rich

[RBowlin]

I know the title of this thread is not too sexy, but surely some of you guys that use control surfaces would like this option, no?

I have multiple controllers and Reaper's lack of midi feedback all but kills their usefulness. Not being a programmer I'm not sure if such a change to Reaper's structure would be difficult, but I can sure tell you that such a change would result in making Reaper much easier to use.

Anybody?

-Rich

[musicbynumbers]

I can sympathize and would like to see it in reaper for standard MIDI controllers but because all devices use the mackie protocol mcu or automap, I have had happy days with my devices but still be up for it.

I have a feeling at somepoint, osc will be implemented and that will set the way for high Res and feedback including naming too.

[nightscope]

I don't have the problem you describe. Reaper provides midi feedback to my controllers perfectly.

ns

[RBowlin]

Originally Posted by nightscope

I don't have the problem you describe. Reaper provides midi feedback to my controllers perfectly.

ns

Under the Preferences section Reaper will list all the connected midi devices. Here, you can set up a midi device to send and receive midi data from Reaper. Reaper also has "Control Surface" section. Here you can set up an MCU or whatever controller you have. When setup here, Reaper does provided midi feedback - move a fader onscreen and an MCU fader moves.
But there are times when I do not want to use a midi device as a "surface controller" because Reaper maps everything the same. For example, I have a BCF2000. WHen used in the control surface mode the faders control volume. However, when I use the BCF2000 as a midi device, I can use its eight faders to control whatever I want. In my case, I use the faders to control the first 8 send levels. So, I move a fader on the BCF2000 and the send volume in Reaper responds. However, if I move the onscreen send level, the BCF2000 does not respond beacuse, I assume, Reaper is not sending any data to the BCF2000.
So the problem becomes obvious. I select the next track and the faders do not jump to the correct postion. However, when I move a fader Reaper immediatley changes the send level to reflect the position of the fader - which can be VERY different from track to track. So each time you move from track to track and move a fader, you're starting from scratch.

If Reaper provided midi data to the BCF2000, then mix-tweaking becomes easy. Otherwise, the BCF2000 is of little value.

-Rich

[Gerold Slama]

Originally Posted by RBowlin

Anybody?

-Rich

yes, BCR2000 owner here. Perfect with Cubase generic remote.

Fortunately i became a decent mouse operator by now.

[gofer]

I think one (maybe small and easily solvable, dunno) problem is that Reaper would need to know on which port the feedback messages should be sent to.

That said and on a similar train of thought, would it a good thing if Reaper could differentiate between individual MIDI ports when learning controller assignments (either in the action list and the plugin parameter learn system)? (It has downsides, eg in portability or when changing computer hardware, but still...)

[RBowlin]

Originally Posted by gofer

I think one (maybe small and easily solvable, dunno) problem is that Reaper would need to know on which port the feedback messages should be sent to.

I suspect Reaper already knows this. I mean, in the midi device section you can setup the midi device to send and receive data without entering any port data. The problem is that, as far as I can tell, Reaper sends no midi data out under this setup at all.

This drives me nuts when mixing.

-Rich

[nofish]

+1 for Midi feedback for learned controllers

Not having this is actually the reason I gave up using Reaper in a live setup (with a BCR2000). In a live gig you simply can't live with parameter jumps.

Ideally (for me) Midi feedback should also work instantly with SWS snapshots (meaning loading a snapshot should also update the control surface for learned parameters).

[nightscope]

Originally Posted by RBowlin

This drives me nuts when mixing.

That bad, huh?

If you use the BCF in Mackie mode with Klinke's plugin sends can be accessed with a couple of button presses. First select the track, then Sends[EXIT]. The sends are then on the faders, but you loose the track faders, solo, mute, etc. Plus you got to go out of sends, re-select another track and back into sends to get at another track. Many button presses.

Another way to do it is to assign the track sends using Klinke's Action Mode editor[ALT on keyboard + STORE on BCF]. You're in normal track mode[EDIT] then you just hit action mode[STORE] and the sends, all 8 of them if required, are accessible via the 8 pots for the currently selected track. Fader, mute, solo still happening OK. Because the sends assignments are set in relative 2 mode rather than absolute there's no jumping around when switching tracks. You can adjust onscreen or with the controller without any unwanted issues.

ns

[RBowlin]

Originally Posted by nofish

+1 for Midi feedback for learned controllers

In a live gig you simply can't live with parameter jumps.

Ideally (for me) Midi feedback should also work instantly with SWS snapshots (meaning loading a snapshot should also update the control surface for learned parameters).

Exactly. Stand-alone midi controllers would be incredibly useful and powerful in Reaper if Reaper just gave some feedback. Without that feedback, there's little reason to use them because of the "parameter jumps." And that's a shame because there are so MANY actions that can be controlled via midi.

Man, I'd give anything if a dev would comment.

-Rich

[nightscope]

Rich, when you assign a midi controller in the action list there is an option to use "soft takeover [absolute mode only]". This will stop your "parameter jumps".

ns

[Guido]

Originally Posted by gofer

I think one (maybe small and easily solvable, dunno) problem is that Reaper would need to know on which port the feedback messages should be sent to.

That said and on a similar train of thought, would it a good thing if Reaper could differentiate between individual MIDI ports when learning controller assignments (either in the action list and the plugin parameter learn system)? (It has downsides, eg in portability or when changing computer hardware, but still...)

Hi,
Yes that would be great!

Guido

[RBowlin]

Originally Posted by nightscope

Rich, when you assign a midi controller in the action list there is an option to use "soft takeover [absolute mode only]". This will stop your "parameter jumps".

ns

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll give it a try. But my ultimate goal is to have the faders fly to the correct position as I move from track to track. Anything less results in nothing more than coarse adjustments and constant refiddling to get things back to the way you originally had them.

Thanks again for the help.

-Rich

[nightscope]

Originally Posted by RBowlin

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll give it a try. But my ultimate goal is to have the faders fly to the correct position as I move from track to track. Anything less results in nothing more than coarse adjustments and constant refiddling to get things back to the way you originally had them.

Thanks again for the help.

-Rich

I hear you. It ain't ideal so we battle on.

ns

[RBowlin]

Just a friendly bump to bring this topic back to the top of the forum. There's been some midi-love going on by Cockos in recent releases and it would be WAY cool if Reaper could send midi feedback to a controller (when not used as a control surface).

Individual flexibility is the hallmark of Reaper and this would sure add to that legacy.

-Rich

[nofish]

Originally Posted by nightscope

Rich, when you assign a midi controller in the action list there is an option to use "soft takeover [absolute mode only]". This will stop your "parameter jumps".

ns

Soft takeover is better than nothing of course, but still too slow for using it in a live situation (for me anyways).
You still would have to wiggle your controller first and check when Reaper picks up the parameter.

regarding the already existing parameter feedback for Mackie mode etc. that has been mentioned:

This is fine for me for Studio work and I use it gladly for this, but for a live setup the problem for me is the unflexible fixed controller assignment.

For live I need to assign the controllers exactly how I need them for quick access (ie using Reaper's parameter learn) and still get parameter feedback which is currently not possible.

[nightscope]

Originally Posted by nofish

regarding the already existing parameter feedback for Mackie mode etc. that has been mentioned:

This is fine for me for Studio work and I use it gladly for this, but for a live setup the problem for me is the unflexible fixed controller assignment.

Using the editor that comes with Klinke's Mackie plugin controller FX and instrument assignments are not "fixed". You can build your own custom layouts to taste.

http://www.screencast.com/users/Klin...4-9881626c2037

ns

[nofish]

Originally Posted by nightscope

Using the editor that comes with Klinke's Mackie plugin controller FX and instrument assignments are not "fixed". You can build your own custom layouts to taste.

http://www.screencast.com/users/Klin...4-9881626c2037

ns

I know about Klinke's editor and already use it.
Again, great for studio work, but still a bit too unflexible for me for live use.

For example, in MCU mode I'm either in Channel mode (for adjusting track faders) or I'm in FX mode (which allows me to only control parameters of one FX at a time), I cannot make it so that I can use several controls for fader adjustments and at the same time control several FX parameters of several VSTs at once, at least I haven't found a way to do it.

Not writing this because I want to moan about Klinke's plugin shortcomings (I'm happy with it) just saying that I'd find parameter feedback for learned parameters still be useful.

[nightscope]

Originally Posted by nofish

For example, in MCU mode I'm either in Channel mode (for adjusting track faders) or I'm in FX mode (which allows me to only control parameters of one FX at a time), I cannot make it so that I can use several controls for fader adjustments and at the same time control several FX parameters of several VSTs at once, at least I haven't found a way to do it.

Sure. I can see now how you are limited with things as they are at present. The only thing I ever do live is wave a guitar around and try to look sinister.

Originally Posted by nofish

Not writing this because I want to moan about Klinke's plugin shortcomings (I'm happy with it) just saying that I'd find parameter feedback for learned parameters still be useful.

I'd like it too, is there an official FR?

ns

[musicbynumbers]

Your Right for live use yes and the below may not be exactly what you want but it might help if you can understand my crappy explanation!

In the action mode you can have the 8 top rotors assigned to MIDI CCs which can then be assigned to the track fx parameters which can be assigned to parameters on the selected track or as actions as well. You can have 8 banks of this whilst keeping your faders in normal MCU mode and you can even use a tracks assigned knobs alongside reacontrol to get the to output midi to any sent to track.

Bit mad but it might help

Originally Posted by nofish

I know about Klinke's editor and already use it.
Again, great for studio work, but still a bit too unflexible for me for live use.

For example, in MCU mode I'm either in Channel mode (for adjusting track faders) or I'm in FX mode (which allows me to only control parameters of one FX at a time), I cannot make it so that I can use several controls for fader adjustments and at the same time control several FX parameters of several VSTs at once, at least I haven't found a way to do it.

Not writing this because I want to moan about Klinke's plugin shortcomings (I'm happy with it) just saying that I'd find parameter feedback for learned parameters still be useful.

[RBowlin]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

In the action mode you can have the 8 top rotors assigned to MIDI CCs which can then be assigned to the track fx parameters which can be assigned to parameters on the selected track or as actions as well.

I have an MCU Pro and two extenders working as I would expect. I also have a BCF2000. I'd like to use the faders on the BCF2000 to control the first 8 send levels on a selected track. As I select different tracks, I'd like those faders to jump to the correct position of the newly selected track. Are you saying I can use Klinke's mod for this? I've tried with no success, but I'll go back and mess with it again if it will work.

-Rich

[nofish]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Your Right for live use yes and the below may not be exactly what you want but it might help if you can understand my crappy explanation!

In the action mode you can have the 8 top rotors assigned to MIDI CCs which can then be assigned to the track fx parameters which can be assigned to parameters on the selected track or as actions as well. You can have 8 banks of this whilst keeping your faders in normal MCU mode and you can even use a tracks assigned knobs alongside reacontrol to get the to output midi to any sent to track.

Bit mad but it might help

Thanks mbn,

indeed I didn't check out the action mode yet.
Will give it a try.

[babyjaws]

+1 for the option to enable midi feedback : )

dont quite understand the workaround here, is it by using your controller in mackie mode and then using Klinke's Mackie plugin?



I have a complicated live setup with bcr2000's
if anyone uses a DSI Tetr4 and has a BCR2000 I have made maps that allow you to control the tetra with your bcr2000 perfectly
here
http://babyjaws.com/blog/archives/183

[nofish]

Originally Posted by babyjaws

dont quite understand the workaround here, is it by using your controller in mackie mode and then using Klinke's Mackie plugin?

Yes. This gives you Midi feedback for your controller.
btw, Reaper has this already natively , Klinke's plugin is "just" a great enhancement for this.

There are two ways to use a Midi controller in Reaper, assigning it as a Mackie compatible device for example which gives Midi feedback, and using a controller via Reaper's Midi learn feature which doesn't give Midi feedback (there's a "soft takeover" option though.)

[stormswiv]

I have an AKAI LPD8 and use this controller to select tracks with the pads.

Since this controller has midi feedback for the leds..Is there a way to display the selected track on the (pad-)leds?

[Klinke]

Originally Posted by nightscope

First select the track, then Sends[EXIT]. The sends are then on the faders, but you loose the track faders, solo, mute, etc. Plus you got to go out of sends, re-select another track and back into sends to get at another track. Many button presses.

Just a hint how to save some button presses in this case: When you hold the track-mode button while selecting a new track, then you will return automatically to switch back to the send-mode (this is possible for all mode changes). So you need only to press(&hold) one additional button to switch a track while you are in the send-mode.

[Klinke]

Originally Posted by nofish

I know about Klinke's editor and already use it.
Again, great for studio work, but still a bit too unflexible for me for live use.

Yep, i'm aware of it and plan to integrate a live-mode, the INSTRUMENT button of the VPOT ASSIGN section is already reserved for it ;-)

But it will not have time to implement this in the near future :-(

[nightscope]

Originally Posted by Klinke

Just a hint how to safe some button presses in this case: When you hold the track-mode button while selecting a new track, then you will return automatically to switch back to the send-mode (this is possible for all mode changes). So you need only to press(&hold) one additional button to switch a track while you are in the send-mode.

Cheers, Klinke.

ns

[babyjaws]

hi, sorry to bring this old thread up, but perhaps someone can help me out here
i have an old soundtracs solo logic 32 mixing console that has vca fader automation (non motorized) so each channel actually sends out and receives a unique midi cc, both for fader position and mute status.
unfortunately, the faders are old and even after extensive cleaning, they all have strange and different curves to them, SO,for now I would like to control these faders from within reaper until i get the cash to replace them all.
mapping all the faders with actions works great, but of course it doesnt work the other way round ;(
can I make a custom control surface somehow? its very simple mapping all on one channel, just a bunch of CC's.
can I edit one of the control surface extensions?
which one and how?
really wish reaper had midi feedback, that would solve all of this !

[drfunkeys]

I'd like more feedback too. Currently use the half and half bcf method.. I like that I can assign my own actions, but it'd be way cooler if I could assign my own feedback for things like vst parameters, channel width etc. I use osx at work and win7 at home, so currently klinke's plugin is no good to me (not osx compatible)

[m127]

Just to cast my vote and add to the petition here>

+1 for MIDI feedback

Pretty please, we need this.

[m127]

Nonetheless this issue is sort of the Achiles thing.

Sonar - Nope
Fruttyloopys - Nope
Cubase - Workaround it (improves were made with Quick Controls, but only 8 parameters can be set)
Reason - Yes, but not VST nor HW support
Live - Sort of (with tons of subapplications and workarounds but not automatable... pff!)

But most importantly>

Reaper - Nope


The implementation of this would give Reaper a cutting edge status.

[ZeeByeZon]

+1 for the feedback to control surface

With a BCR2000 for example, this enables the visualization of controlled parameter values on the physical device (led rings and button leds).

Reaper allows to trigger actions on incoming MIDI messages. What is missing is the sending of MIDI messages on action triggering.

This would be a new column in the action list...

[Seventh]

What? No midi feedback for controllers? Really? And I was just about to get a Novation SL Mk II
Guess I'll have to wait and see what happens, when happens, if happens..

[nofish]

Originally Posted by m127

Nonetheless this issue is sort of the Achiles thing.

Sonar - Nope
Fruttyloopys - Nope
Cubase - Workaround it (improves were made with Quick Controls, but only 8 parameters can be set)
Reason - Yes, but not VST nor HW support
Live - Sort of (with tons of subapplications and workarounds but not automatable... pff!)

FWIW,
Live works totally great with my BCR and parameter feedback.
Just assign the BCR to input and output, learn parameters -> instant Midi feedback, automation is no problem.

But most importantly>

Reaper - Nope

This !

[m127]

Originally Posted by nofish

FWIW,
Live works totally great with my BCR and parameter feedback.
Just assign the BCR to input and output, learn parameters -> instant Midi feedback, automation is no problem.



This !

Can you, for example, have the BCR mapped to an EQ plugin in, say, one audio channel, then you select channel two, where you have a compressor, and have the BCR automatically update its encoders to reflect the compressor parameters just by switching channels??

Can you automate that compressor and EQ using the BCR in session mode??

Nope and nope, afaik

But I would love to be wrong. Please explain why I am wrong.

[ZeeByeZon]

I think your right.

That's what I would like to be able to do: have an EQ and a comp on each track and tweak them with my BCR on the selected track, with an update of the controller panel on each track selection or parameter value change.

[nofish]

Originally Posted by m127

Can you, for example, have the BCR mapped to an EQ plugin in, say, one audio channel, then you select channel two, where you have a compressor, and have the BCR automatically update its encoders to reflect the compressor parameters just by switching channels??

Can you automate that compressor and EQ using the BCR in session mode??

Nope and nope, afaik

But I would love to be wrong. Please explain why I am wrong.

Ok, now I see that I work totally different from you.
I think for the points you make, yes, you're right, that doesn't work.
Should have been more specific in my previous reply, sorry.

What I did was mapping the parameters of plugins I needed to control (from different tracks) all to my BCR to different encoders. (So I needed no automatic update based on track selection.)
And I did the automation in arrange view.
That's all I needed in that moment and parameter feedback worked flawlessly for me in this situation.

[muttlee]

Originally Posted by m127

Just to cast my vote and add to the petition here>

+1 for MIDI feedback

Pretty please, we need this.

Me too!!! I can provide a truck load of cherry's to go on that pretty please!!!

+1,000,000

I've made a bunch of differnt patches for a bcr2000 using klinke's awesome work for a basic 8 channel mixer, and the same template on 4 patches to control my channel strip vsts. I dont find auto pickup helpful as i stil overshoot the position, so i set the default positions on the bcr to match the default vst layouts i use in the sws fx slots. And the bcr remembers the positions for each patch, so i can jump between the pages. Just another crappy work around reallly....Until the gawd's make our day