Old 03-04-2011, 05:55 AM   #1
Evan
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Default Pooled items suggestions

Pooled items (aka ghost items/copies) is one of the major new MIDI features in v4. And it's awesome. But I have some suggestions after working with it a bit. Pooled items can come and bite you in the back if you're not very careful. Because you may spend a lot of time working on a specific part of the arrangement, while unintentionally changing another (pooled copy) without realizing.

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(1) pooled items need to be made very obvious, even in minimal track heights.

Εxample with pooled vs grouped items:



Here are four selected items in the arrangement. The items on the right are grouped, and the red border around them makes it pretty obvious.

The items on the left are pooled, but there's no obvious indication.

Suggestion: A special border (e.g. dashed) for pooled items when selected. Visible at all track heights.

Ideally, and this is just my opinion, pooled items should not look exactly like regural items.

Support this in the Issue Tracker: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4347

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(2) FR: split pool group (or 'make unique'). To allow you to select some pooled items (of the same group), and make them a separate pool group.

Example: Say you have a MIDI loop, pooled (repeated) over your arrangement. And you decide that it should sound a little different over the chorus. What if you selected the pooled copies in the chorus, do a 'split pool group' and these copies become a separate set of pooled items.

Support this in the Issue Tracker: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4348

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(3) FR: New mouse modifier for arrangement left-drag: Draw MIDI item, obey pool mode preferences.

In Preferences->Media->MIDI
There's a switch for pool mode. Unfortunately this setting doesn't apply to the mouse modifier actions, which need to be set separately. This creates dichotomy (relevant settings split in different places).

Please provide the mouse modifier action to obey that global setting when drawing items. Turning pooled items on/off on all mouse/keyboard/item operations should be determined by a single option!

Support this in the Issue Tracker: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4349

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(4) It is too easy to unpool an item by a single-click on the item button.

Make it more difficult to do so... e.g. Double-click and/or Alt+click on the button to unpool.
Single-click could simply select the item.
(Extra usefulness: Ctrl or Shift click could select all items in the pool.)

------


(5) Pooled items should be clearly indicated in the MIDI Editor.
For example clear notification on the title or menu bar. And pooled item symbols in the track/item list in the filter window.

This has become even more important now when MIDI editing can be done almost entirely inside MIDI editor without looking/using arrange view.

Last edited by Evan; 01-09-2015 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:48 AM   #2
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Bump for pool love
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Old 05-06-2011, 02:02 AM   #3
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bump for the beta phase... very important stuff for rounding off pooled items, especially point (1) can lead to accidents very easily. Please support (and discuss) these.
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Old 05-06-2011, 02:13 AM   #4
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Sound excellent.

+1
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Old 05-06-2011, 02:18 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
(4) It is too easy to unpool an item by a single-click on the item button.

Make it more difficult to do so... e.g. Double-click and/or Alt+click on the button to unpool.
Single-click could simply select the item.
(Extra usefulness: Ctrl or Shift click could select all items in the pool.)
This is good stuff. Although personally I think single-click is ok. A bit caution is always advised
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:07 AM   #6
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Agreed on all points
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:18 AM   #7
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(1) yes, color is great but it's not enough.

(2) it's a really pain to do that actually, we have to duplicate one of the pooled item, to unpool it, and then recreate all the sequence with the new pooled item.

The ability to select different pooled item (I mean different colored pool item) at the same time, duplicating them, and create a new set of new pooled item for each pool would be a must.

A way to manage pooled item from the project bay would help too.

(3) would definetly make things more coherent.

(4) is not a big problem for me, it's like mute and lock buttons.

One problem about unpooling that is that you cant (or maybe I dont know how to) "repool" items after unpooling (even without modification) the item are the same on the bay, but they cant be "repooled" together ...

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Old 05-06-2011, 05:41 AM   #8
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Thank you all for the discussion so far!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikael View Post
[b](1)

(4) is not a big problem for me, it's like mute and lock buttons.

One problem about unpooling that is that you cant (or maybe I dont know how to) "repool" items after unpooling (even without modification) the item are the same on the bay, but they cant be "repooled" together ...
The problem, as you pointed out, is that this is a 'destructive' operation. Unlike mute or lock buttons. Unpool is not a toggle, it's a permanent change of state.

I am being extra cautious with pooled items, because there's great potential for accidents. Editing a single item could screw up the arrangement several measures later, and go unnoticed. It has to be as much safe, as it is powerful a feature to have.
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:02 AM   #9
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Agreed on all points, especially 2) and 4)

Well put!

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Old 06-28-2011, 05:02 AM   #10
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bump for further discussion+attention
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:14 AM   #11
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Pooled items should be clearly indicated also in MIDI Editor.
For example clear notification on the title or menu bar. And pooled item symbols in the track/item list in the filter window.

This has become even more important now when MIDI editing can be done almost entirely inside MIDI editor without looking/using arrange view.


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Old 06-28-2011, 05:22 AM   #12
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great point jnif, added to the original post
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Old 08-01-2011, 05:48 AM   #13
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bump for some RC love...
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Old 08-01-2011, 05:57 AM   #14
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Extra bump, especially for points 1) and 4).

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Old 08-01-2011, 06:17 AM   #15
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Yes, this pooling functionality needs a bit of love before prime time /me thinks. At least in v4.0x
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:24 AM   #16
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I totally agree but really think it's idea is a great advancement for MIDI fools like me.
Little MIDI tricks can blossom under the right circumstances, and this being one of them...

Thank You...
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:12 AM   #17
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12345.... (aka bump)
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:27 AM   #18
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Totally +1. I've had several situations where I had to go back a revision or two because I changed the wrong things. Sure, this is somewhat of a user error on my behalf but it could be clearer.
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:41 PM   #19
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bump...

now that R4 is official, maybe this thread belongs to the Feature Requests?
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
now that R4 is official, maybe this thread belongs to the Feature Requests?
Do It!

It's these problems that make me so cautious that I don't even use pooled MIDI, I just don't trust myself with it the way it is ATM.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
bump...

now that R4 is official, maybe this thread belongs to the Feature Requests?
Hey Evan, I can move it there, just let me know
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:52 PM   #22
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Please do Merc, thank you
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:47 AM   #23
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Yes.

Is there an official FR for this?

Very frustrating to need to zoom, scroll, etc, just to see if there are any pooled items.
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:02 AM   #24
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sorry wrong thread nevermind.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:24 AM   #25
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bump!..... and some dots....
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:14 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
The problem, as you pointed out, is that this is a 'destructive' operation. Unlike mute or lock buttons. Unpool is not a toggle, it's a permanent change of state.
Technically it's not difficult to check whether MIDI items are identical. In fact, there could be a 'Repool to...' menu with the list of all possible 'parents' for a given item.
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:27 PM   #27
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Whooo!

Brilliant stuff!
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Old 08-28-2012, 03:33 AM   #28
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bringing this back to attention....
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Old 09-09-2012, 06:43 AM   #29
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bump... points 1, 2 and 3 are now in the issue tracker. Please vote/discuss if you care. Thanks!
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:52 AM   #30
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why MIDI only?.. not fair.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=110001
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:31 PM   #31
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i haven't used pooled items much yet, because i only just realized what it was, and haven't done much midi yet since, but, for me, i need for the color of all pooled items to be the same, and change randomly. single items should be easy to unpool and repool. also, to be able to pool portions. so say you have 2 pooled items for a chorus, of say 4 bars, you should be able to cut the fourth bar, unpool that, and still have the first 3 bars pooled with the rest of your pooled items.

also, identical items should be able to be pooled together. not sure exactly how is best this could be done, might be really tough, but i do agree that is important.

maybe an extra indicator for pooled items would be good as well. to me, how reason works is very close to what i'd want for this.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:37 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post


(2) Another feature that would be very useful to have is: split pool group (or 'make unique'). To allow you to select some pooled items (of the same group), and make them a separate pool group.

Example: Say you have a MIDI loop, pooled (repeated) over your arrangement. And you decide that it should sound a little different over the chorus. What if you selected the pooled copies in the chorus, do a 'split pool group' and these copies become a separate set of pooled items.

Support this in the Issue Tracker: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4348
has anyone heard any news on this, or a development I might have missed? The lack of this almost makes pooling more of a hinderance than help at certain times
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:50 PM   #33
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WTF, how old is this shit? Why don't the developers care about this old problem? Can't be THAT difficult to fix....
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Old 01-09-2015, 09:17 AM   #34
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bump for 2015.... here's hoping this feature set gets fixed this year....
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:46 AM   #35
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I just came across this, and its sad that Reaper 5.0 still hasnt at LEAST improved the discrepancy between the Preferences/Options checkbox and the mouse modifier actions for Ctrl+LeftDrag(Copy) and Ctrl+LefDrag(Draw) not obeying this checkbox. The other requests to me are secondary but I wouldnt mind all of them. The good thing is that these fixes won't bother anyone.

please someone care.
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Old 11-16-2015, 02:54 AM   #36
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End-of-2015 bump.... preparing for 2016
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Old 11-17-2015, 02:42 PM   #37
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These are good ideas. +1

Bug:
Auto coloring for pooled takes overridden by track color.
(Um, it says "color ... items" but pooling is a take property.)



http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=168942

edit- Where is #5 request?

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Old 11-20-2015, 09:32 PM   #38
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+++++
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