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Old 03-11-2011, 04:22 AM   #1
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Default Repair digital glitches with Reaper v4. Only a waveform pencil may beat this

This is way cool . I didn't realize it works that well until yesterday. Snap to sample has to be enabled and the file must be at project sample rate. No playrate or pitch (I assume, didn't actually try pitched items yet) change allowed.

Here I debug a single sample by splitting it out and shift the snippet's content by a single sample. The irritating thing is that I have to split one sample leftward of what the waveform preview would indicate, I reported this yesterday http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...778#post700778, if someone wants to confirm I'd be grateful

But other than that it works purrrfect . Actually the click is inaudible as soon as I slipped the content of the snippet, even before glueing. I drag the velocity handle a bit, but only to show that option in the animation. It sounds perfectly clean beforehand.




And here I repair a longer glitch.
I timeselect the glitching portion (again with that one sample offset ), copy the file to another lane (could be a track as well, of course) and slip the copy's content to a healthy portion in the next wavecycle. Then I split at time selection, delete the redundant items and glue.


Still a waveform pencil is cooler, but I'm amazed at how good this works .


Thoughts:
- For some reason a time selection of a single sample length can't be created. No show stopper, but I wonder why that is.

- It would be great to have a bunch of actions that move edit cursor/time selection/item content/item edges by one sample. That single-sample-repair-slip-edit cries for being automated .

Last edited by gofer; 03-11-2011 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:48 AM   #2
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That's very cool.

But.

Why don't they just give us a pencil tool!?!? So much simpler ...
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:03 AM   #3
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Agreed, but I see this glass is definitely half full .
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:04 AM   #4
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Why don't they just give us a pencil tool!?!? So much simpler ...
Not for the devs. That slip trick is very cool though.
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:32 AM   #5
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Not for the devs.
Yes, but isn't the point of software to make things easier for the user?

If I was scouting out REAPER as a pre-user and asked the forum how to do "pencil tool" editing ... and I got shown Gofer's post ... as cool as it is (for those who are already users and already like REAPER), I would have just left right then.

Even Audacity does it better ...

It's this "any sample rate simultaneously" thing that seems to cause all the issues right? I find that frustrating, as it's a feature that I personally find pointless in the first place. It's a feature that I imagine is used mostly by composers, and I feel that it limits REAPER in terms of what it can do properly for more critical editing applications ...

It's not impossible to achieve both the multiple sample-rate abilities and per-sample editing. Magix have done it with Samplitude. It is do-able!

Anyway, that's enough bitching from me
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:41 AM   #6
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Erm .. the pencil is mightier than the scissor! lol
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:53 AM   #7
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How do you even do that? What's the function called?
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:02 AM   #8
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How do you even do that? What's the function called?
it`s not any special function, he just splits the sample that is causing problems to seperate media item and slips it around to next sample (or whichever fits the context better) and glues it back again
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:05 AM   #9
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Basically I just split the bad sample(s), then slip edit the content of that mini-item and glue the stuff together again to a new file. The main point is having "Snap to project sample rate enabled in the snap settings. Mind that it only works nice when the file you edit is playing at project sample rate.


The mighty pencil may come upon us one fine day

For now I am very delighted to have this option at hand and to see that at least under good circumstances the inter-sample rounding problems are avoidable now. What had me impressed is how one can grab the volume handle of a fully peaked bad sample and drag it down so the amplitude fits the surrounding and have a glitch free audio from that point on. That never occurred to me until I tried yesterday. I'm not exactly a full time audio editor .
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:11 AM   #10
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Hmm, okay.. But how do you get that velocity-type view? With the drawing tool, would you just be able to smooth out spikes with a click?
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:11 AM   #11
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Amazing workaround gofer!!

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Old 03-11-2011, 06:22 AM   #12
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Hmm, okay.. But how do you get that velocity-type view? With the drawing tool, would you just be able to smooth out spikes with a click?
You have some options for how waveforms look when zoomed to sample level in Preferences -> Appearance -> Peaks/waveforms: "Sample level waveform view. It has not much influence on the result which one you prefer, though "Smooth" seems not so appropriate for this edit.

In the upper ani it's "Filled samples", but I find the "Outlined samples" in the lower ani much nicer.
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:32 AM   #13
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Ahh, i get it now. Thanks
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:36 AM   #14
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Just as a self-reminder:
The waveform-drawn-one-sample-offset glitch also rears it's head at the end of the upper ani when I glue. Note how the edited sample and the one to the right of it appear to swap places when glueing.
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:43 AM   #15
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Neat workaround. But... I'm on the side of pencil tool-ers!

It shouldn't be too hard to make a non-destructive pen tool. Basically it would mark the sample which was replaced, and the new amplitude value. The original value remains in the audio file.

Although, this could be quite a lot of text data in the RPPs. Hence, Cockos should introduce the possibility of using zipped RPPs, they would be so much more convenient.
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:03 AM   #16
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Neat workaround. But... I'm on the side of pencil tool-ers!
I don't think there is anyone on the other side ;D.
The advantage of the workaround is that it's available now. I just thought it would be a good thing to tell you lot about (also to get that offset thing fixed). I didn't intend to spawn yet another FR thread .
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:12 AM   #17
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Sorry Gofer, that's my fault.

It's a great workaround, and one that I will be using
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:30 AM   #18
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Heh, I'd like a pencil tool too. I doubt that the devs are unaware of the popularity of this request though. Hopefully it'll happen in the not-to-distant future.

/me goes off to look for the relevant FR, check if I voted yet

/me comes back again. Yep, voted already

Last edited by IXix; 03-11-2011 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:10 AM   #19
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+1 for the Pencil option. Need it often.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Thoughts:
- For some reason a time selection of a single sample length can't be created. No show stopper, but I wonder why that is.

- It would be great to have a bunch of actions that move edit cursor/time selection/item content/item edges by one sample. That single-sample-repair-slip-edit cries for being automated .
That's taking you a fairly long time Gofer.

Here's what I often do. I search for material to cover it up, often finding it pretty close to where the glitch is. The penciling method is sometimes the quickest way to do it, but only sometimes. Often, you'll get a more natural result with similar material covering up a flaw, depending on the complexity of the flaw.

In this simple method, I have the auto fades and auto-x-fades turned off, and trim behind media content on. I often have the auto-fades on if the minimum 1 millisecond fades it creates aren't too large. This is really a dumb limitation, just like the minimum-size selection used to be. If I had the choice, I'd always have the auto fades on with a size of 10 samples, sometimes less. That way you don't have to create a lot of crossfades at the edges after you drop in replacement material.

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Old 03-11-2011, 01:58 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
That's very cool.

But.

Why don't they just give us a pencil tool!?!? So much simpler ...
Lets say I import an mp3 into the project and time stretch it. How would the pencil tool work on that? I imagine this is where part of the resistance is coming from - the GUI doesn't really distinguish between different source types so it would probably be heaps of work to implement.

Just as a side note, I'm surprised by the number of people who need a pencil tool, I haven't seen a glitch in an audio file I've imported in years. Where are these glitches coming from?
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:53 AM   #22
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And here's another vote for a pencil tool. I've been doing it like airon or, in some cases, with the per-take volume envelope but sometimes it's just impossible without redrawing the waveform (camera zoom glitches, anyone?).
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:40 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
..with the per-take volume envelope..
i do it that way. if thats not enough, "open in primary/secondary editor" *

im not against the pencil, but there are many more important things to fix/add, imHo.


* : http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=98824
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
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i do it that way. if thats not enough, "open in primary/secondary editor"
yeah. this seems more like a job for a wav editor to me.
frankly, i've always been dumbfounded as to why reaper
doesn't have that ability natively.

pencil tool: nice.
wav editor: essential.

i assume that's why there's the ability to link to an
external editor. it's essential.

BabaG
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:16 PM   #25
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I also would love a pencil tool! I've been hoping for one forever. It would really help me quite a lot as I make a lot of drum samples and it would be heaven to be able to draw transients or smooth things out after layering. I really hope we can see this implemented sometime soon.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:17 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
i do it that way. if thats not enough, "open in primary/secondary editor" *

im not against the pencil, but there are many more important things to fix/add, imHo.


* : http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=98824
Yeah, too many things to fix too little time heh

I'm doing tons of post work nowadays and man, I really miss that pencil tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babag View Post
yeah. this seems more like a job for a wav editor to me.
frankly, i've always been dumbfounded as to why reaper
doesn't have that ability natively.

pencil tool: nice.
wav editor: essential.

i assume that's why there's the ability to link to an
external editor. it's essential.

BabaG
In my opinion, REAPER doesn't need an editor, it is so powerful that you can do pretty much everything with it. It's just missing a couple of features to make it ideal for post work like that pencil tool. I do heavy editing in REAPER and I haven't needed an editor ever, zoom, scroll, tweaks with per-take envelopes, split, delete, remove, replace, etc., almost everything is already there and it works lightning fast if you set all up properly.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:28 AM   #27
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may as well shamelessly mention my little heal tool i use occasionally for larger glitches... it's a cut and stretch type affair, the odd person has found it handy..

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=39




doesn't mean a pencil isn't welcome
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
In my opinion, REAPER doesn't need an editor, it is so powerful that you can do pretty much everything with it. It's just missing a couple of features to make it ideal for post work like that pencil tool. I do heavy editing in REAPER and I haven't needed an editor ever, zoom, scroll, tweaks with per-take envelopes, split, delete, remove, replace, etc., almost everything is already there and it works lightning fast if you set all up properly.
on the other hand, when working with library materials
which might be used repeatedly in numerous projects,
fixing the wav directly is a better solution rather than
having to repeatedly fix it whenever it's used.

BabaG
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babag View Post
on the other hand, when working with library materials
which might be used repeatedly in numerous projects,
fixing the wav directly is a better solution rather than
having to repeatedly fix it whenever it's used.

BabaG
But you can glue or render specific items/areas and also rename them while doing it, which is what most editors do (destructive).
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:22 PM   #30
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I agree that Reaper shouldn't need an editor. I make drum samples and Reaper is my go-to program. I wouldn't want to do it in anything else, in fact, I don't think I COULD do it in anything else. Reaper is so quick and I feel like I have the utmost control over what I am doing.

My only missing link is a pencil tool. It would really do wonders for me.
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:19 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
But you can glue or render specific items/areas and also rename them while doing it, which is what most editors do (destructive).
Doesn't Reaper write a new file every time you glue though? Not really optimal as you can end up with hundreds of useless dummy files. I use a free wave editor called Wavosaur, it has a pencil-like tool that can grab and drag the sample points up and down with mouse.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:49 AM   #32
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Quote:
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Doesn't Reaper write a new file every time you glue though? Not really optimal as you can end up with hundreds of useless dummy files.
Not useless if you find you've done something wrong and need to backtrack. Besides, there's always "Clean project directory".
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:40 AM   #33
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Not useless if you find you've done something wrong and need to backtrack. Besides, there's always "Clean project directory".
That's true, if you make mistakes... Just joking.

Anyway I don't think Reaper was ever intended as a wave editor as it's not possible to just open, edit and save a file without conversion and making a new file every time you change something. It's just faster to edit in external editor, save and it gets updated in Reaper.
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